Conventional Fixtures ETC Source Four mini - brightest replacement bulb

jt3

Member
Hi All,

I am using S4 minis (12V, 50W Tungsten, not LED) to project directional arrows on the floor of my museum with color print glass GOBOs. Of course, when the sun shines in the windows, the graphics are washed out and staff are unhappy.

I have searched high and low for an MR16 LED solution with more lumens than the standard MR16 50W Tungsten w/35 degree beam. It seems like a 50W LED in the MR16 would be a much brighter source but no one seems to make them.

Do you have a recommendation on the best bulb to use with the Source Four mini?

Thanks for your input!
 
The sun is about 127,000 lumens. The S4 mini about 440. If there were a 50W LED, (not 50W equivalent) it is highly unlikely the S4 mini would be able to handle the the heat dissipation required to keep the LED working. The Irideon FPZ is a little brighter but still won't win against the sun. Are anti-glare window films are an option?
 
Do you need the 36° or can you move to a 26° or 19° to improve illuminance?
 
MNicolai is referring to the lense tube on the front of the fixtures, if you can use a narrower lens you will get a brighter spot/arrow. The MR16 lamp however must be the proper 35 deg one, otherwise you will likely add vignetting to the beam produced, as the optics Will not be properly saturated. It would be interesting To experiment with, but likely not of much use. I did try an LED MR16 few years back, but it was the multi source variety and produced an interesting splotchy and flowery effect. So if you do decide to experiment, go for the singe source varieties, and try to stay near the same reflector angle.

What color(s) are the the gobos? In addition to window treatments, the arrow color would also be worth experimenting with, if possible, as a different color may show up better on the floor and with the general lighting/sun. (And of course transmission rate, a apparent brightness, and contrast play into how bright it will look to the eye.)
 
As u/sk8rsdad said heat would be a killer. The fixture could obviously handle it, but the electronic driver for the LED and the LED itself wouldn't be able to. I've never really messed with them so this is just spitballing here. If it was me I would look to see if it was possible to get the guts to swap in LED parts to your incandescent fixtures. I'm guessing the heatsink they designed would be better than anything most of us could DIY. From there figure out how to swap in a 6v Cree XHP 70.2 in the specs of your choice. It's a much more effecient LED and should deliver near 2x the output of the LED that comes in them stock. I doubt the CRI will be as good, but for what your doing that really doesn't matter. Hopefully at that point the fixture focuses well with a gobo. If it does and you still need more output then you can start playing around with LED drivers to crank up the power. At that point it's all about heat dissipation. I've seen guys get over 9000 lumens out of them on a test bench, but they're pulling 150+ watts to get them there. You wouldn't want to actually drive it that hard, but you could maybe get away with around 50w and 6000ish lumens. Of course that's if you can keep the heat under control. That's really the biggest issue, heat kills.
 
If you don't feel like building your own LED into your S4mini, definitely give different Soraa or other high powered LED MR16s a try.
While it's true, the beam shapers built into these LED MR16s might give you an uneven raw beam, since you have a gobo in there, the edges of the beam aren't much of your concern.

I've always been desperate for the lights IKEA uses for their in store arrows.
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If you don't feel like building your own LED into your S4mini, definitely give different Soraa or other high powered LED MR16s a try.
While it's true, the beam shapers built into these LED MR16s might give you an uneven raw beam, since you have a gobo in there, the edges of the beam aren't much of your concern.

I've always been desperate for the lights IKEA uses for their in store arrows.
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Those are made by a company called Derksen and they've got a bunch of options for gobo projection, the current version Ikea uses are all LED and has the gobo mounted in the barrel so you can reach up easily to change the direction. They do have an 80w version that puts out 5750 lumens. #funfact
 
What specific lamp are you using? (Agreeing with Ron and Jon above.) Colortan, Altman and ETC all have a crap Leko. The ETC Micro incandescent... is their crap Leko. Sorra LED lamps improves, but still don't fit properly to bench focus in an absolute correct. Taking me back a few years, but I believe 36 degree was the optimum MR-16 beam spread for a lamp to be used in a Micro fixture?

Had a contact call from my new Ushio Rep. today.... Nothing she could do for me, but contact any lamp supplier and if worth their skill level... can find a lamp for you. And as per some vendors, if contacted might find a lamp best efficient LED or incandescent/halogen. As for me... Have to wait at least a month or six for me to do so - sorry on a huge project. Remind me in six months if you don't get much help on the concept, but I'm at this point mostly working on something or on jobsite many miles away.

Having found the ETC website - hard to find and with very out dated for testing especially for zero LED A-21 lamps recommended for their systems (All suppliers of lamps tested by ETC... the lamps useful were dicontinued...) And' those that test lamps so as to dial in the ETC dimmers to them... kind of laid off at the moment.
 
As u/sk8rsdad said heat would be a killer. The fixture could obviously handle it, but the electronic driver for the LED and the LED itself wouldn't be able to. I've never really messed with them so this is just spitballing here. If it was me I would look to see if it was possible to get the guts to swap in LED parts to your incandescent fixtures. I'm guessing the heatsink they designed would be better than anything most of us could DIY. From there figure out how to swap in a 6v Cree XHP 70.2 in the specs of your choice. It's a much more effecient LED and should deliver near 2x the output of the LED that comes in them stock. I doubt the CRI will be as good, but for what your doing that really doesn't matter. Hopefully at that point the fixture focuses well with a gobo. If it does and you still need more output then you can start playing around with LED drivers to crank up the power. At that point it's all about heat dissipation. I've seen guys get over 9000 lumens out of them on a test bench, but they're pulling 150+ watts to get them there. You wouldn't want to actually drive it that hard, but you could maybe get away with around 50w and 6000ish lumens. Of course that's if you can keep the heat under control. That's really the biggest issue, heat kills.
Thanks! I'll look into this. Maybe I can purchase some "dead" mini LEDs and Frankenstein some hotrod lights.
 
Here is a picture (I hope) of the worst case scenario. I have been denied permission to block out the doorway of course.

To answer above question, red arrows on the GOBO. Edit: I thought they were red but now appear very white...

Thanks for the input!
20200817_114227.jpg
 
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