Ethics in Live Performances

[Grog12]

Are we now going to complain when an actor mimics turning on a practical (which should be in the actor's ability to turn on a light switch)? Are we going to complain that the orchestra is using a synthesizer instead of all the individual instruments? Are we going to complain that costume designer uses Velcro or zippers in period costumes (I was paying to see an authentic production)? Or, is it that we as technicians sometimes have disdain for actors and those working with them? We have all had issues with Prima Donnas and clueless directors, but does that give us the freedom to not do what we have been contracted to do (make the best performance with the tools provided, and the actors are one of our tools)? We can all hope for the perfect world (I'm sure the community theater would prefer VariLite to Chauvet, etc), but in reality, it isn't.

What kills me [user]ruinexplorer[/user] is that fundementally everything you've described here has nothing to do with the actor's talent. As an audience member I came to hear their voice, their tool. When you autotune their voice so they can stay on pitch you might as well have stayed home and rented the movie. Using a synth in the pit still requires someone talented to play it.

When I go to live theatre I"m there for the people, to be entertained by what they can do. I didn't pay to see someone who couldn't sing, couldn't dance, couldnt act. When I go to community theatre I expect there to be a few off key notes its not perfect its part of the wonder of theatre.

 

[ruinexplorer]

What kills me ruinexplorer is that fundementally everything you've described here has nothing to do with the actor's talent. As an audience member I came to hear their voice, their tool. When you autotune their voice so they can stay on pitch you might as well have stayed home and rented the movie. Using a synth in the pit still requires someone talented to play it.

When I go to live theatre I"m there for the people, to be entertained by what they can do. I didn't pay to see someone who couldn't sing, couldn't dance, couldnt act. When I go to community theatre I expect there to be a few off key notes its not perfect its part of the wonder of theatre.

I understand your point. Really I do. I think that you missed mine, especially with the synthesizer. Sure it takes talent to play one, but not nearly the talent required to play a stringed instrument that it mimics. Nor does it sound exactly the same (though pretty close on the very high end models, which the community theater probably wouldn't have anyway). And I don't think cheating on a few things in live theater has anything to compare to watching a movie.

How about this, should we mic actors at all? After all, shouldn't they be able to project? If I'm hearing their voice come, amplified, from a speaker cluster, that's not being there for the actor's talent. If I was there to hear the actor, they wouldn't need to have a mic. When I was in college, we used a mic only in one performance, and that was only for when we were doing a vocal effect (which obviously no actor would be able to do with their own voice). Every single performer was able to be heard over the orchestra. Does that mean that my college was better than all the Broadway actors? I don't think so.

 

[Grog12]

Depends on the house and the accoustics of the house.

Should I substitute a recording of a stringed instrument because the gentleman in the pit can't play the piece?

 

[ruinexplorer]

Depends on the house and the accoustics of the house.

Should I substitute a recording of a stringed instrument because the gentleman in the pit can't play the piece?

I think apples and oranges again. Autotune adjusts the vocals of the performer, not a substitution (lip synch) for the performer.

In reality, I have never had experience using autotune and am not sure if I have ever gone to a performance where it was used. So, I don't know how much it helps or if it is very noticeable (if it even depends on the technician). That's why I said that I'm on the fence as to whether or not it should be used. I just think that we as technicians have come to expect a certain amount of tools to be acceptable and have problems with things outside our realm. As a projectionist, I know of quite a few people who believe that video has no place in live theater, yet it is becoming more and more prevalent. The arguement could be made, why should we ever use media servers, why not just watch a movie. What about the talent of the technician? Should there be flying faders? Should we have computerized lighting consoles?

The reality is that more and more people prefer to go see a movie as opposed to going to see a live performance. I'd say that because of the lack of quality theater, more and more people are going to be moving in that direction, which won't help our lifestyles. If we can't ensure a quality performance, are we really doing our job? I personally don't like to hear sour notes, but that is a reality of live theater. Does autotune fix that, I don't know. I do know that there are some wonderful singers out there who can't project, even in an accoustically sound room, and I appreciate the fact that they can be amplified so that I can hear their voice without needing the orchestra to play so quiet that I can't hear all the nuances of the instrumentation.

 

[Grog12]

But its not apples to oranges. Autotunning is substituting the actor's natural voice and control for a machine.

 

[wolf825]

Interesting thread and I think a lot of valid points have been made. But one point I think folks are dancing around is whether the audience is there to hear a specific actor/actress or are they there to hear the story and show and character....that IMO determines an expectation to whether a voice is live or (hopefully not) tuned.. What is the REASON people or you go to that show?

Someone mentioned Milli Vanilli and others--those were 'names' you expected them to sing and they did not and this is cheating and fraud IMO...where as if you had a show character--like Grizabella from Cats--if the girl couldn't hit that note on Memory with all that heart and feeling then I know I would be grumpy and disappointed...

Going back to CATS--there are different 'variations' of how each actor has played key parts to their own twist or interpretation to bring that character to life--but the common requirement has been that they all be able to musically accomplish the songs as scored. Autotuning IMO is best left for the studio recorders & not for Live...and yet I have mixed many a band who HAS used an autotuner live..not in theater but in concert. But concerts are different from Theater--concerts no one expects them to be more then what they are...but in a show or theater play you expect higher because you are there for the SHOW--for characters and for a story...but--what happens when a 'name' is in the cast of a Show?

Unlike some 'older' performers in the music industry who are touring again---many not always or just cannot hit those big notes like they did in the 1980's or before--people who go to those shows are a bit more forgiving in the aspect and most concert singers will play it off to the audience and many forget it. So lets put a 'name' to the character discussion of hypotheticals--would you expect a Julie Andrews in such a key part in a show on broadway to 'need help' or would you be more forgiving just to hear her as she is or be forgiving IF she had to have a little help--I would probably be happy as she is simply to see her on stage and hopefully it would not be so obvious if she was 'helped'. But--If the part is played by a known name IMO the expectations in some performance can be forgiving....I'm there to see a great performer in a role but understandably they did not achieve that greatness yesterday and may not be as great as they once were...but if the show and the part is played for character--I'm going to see a performance of that show and its done by a professional actor/actres who can do the part...but who has perhaps not achieved that reknown Elaine Page level of greatness yet--then I expect the actor/actress to be cast and to be able to play and sing that character as fully expected..notes and all. If she sucks--it was bad casting and the director will never live it down.. Nice part about Live Theater is folks are hired for TALENT--not for looks or popularity like the movies & TV where 'talent' can be added or dubbed later in Post... Generally speaking for Live Theater--if they can't act or sing the part they don't do the part..leave the autotuners at the studio....


JMO..FWIW.....

-w

 

[mixmaster]

But its not apples to oranges. Autotunning is substituting the actor's natural voice and control for a machine.

Grog12,
I wonder if this is maybe the true point of discussion here. Some people would agree that by using autotune, you are substituting the actors voice with the instrument. In an extreme case, I suppose I can see that happening. Under normal use, just touching up a few missed notes, I suggest that we are not substituting anything, simply enhancing the original voice. Still the original singers dynamics, vibrato, overall style, and acting technique. As such using autotune as an enhancement is really no different than adding a touch of EQ or FX.

 

[jeffsw6]

Where is the line between cheating an audience and creating a spectacle?

If there are people waiting outside to buy tickets, it's called entertainment. If they are mobbing the box office demanding a refund, they've been cheated. Arguments about what is too much technological assistance are just academic. The only line that matters is the ticket line.

 

[mstaylor]

If there are people waiting outside to buy tickets, it's called entertainment. If they are mobbing the box office demanding a refund, they've been cheated. Arguments about what is too much technological assistance are just academic. The only line that matters is the ticket line.

That is just plain cynical. I don't entirely understand how it works. I do think it shouldn't be used in live preformance. As I said above, if you can't sing the role, don't take it. Using mics to help actors or media to enhance a show is fine, faking a voice is not.

 

[MNicolai]

If there are people waiting outside to buy tickets, it's called entertainment. If they are mobbing the box office demanding a refund, they've been cheated. Arguments about what is too much technological assistance are just academic. The only line that matters is the ticket line.

That's a good trick...once.

So you're producing a full U2 tour. All of the shows are sold out long before you get to the venue. So why not just put the band in arenas with fluorescent lighting and skip all of the hassles of touring with truss and ML's if you've already got the butts in the seats? Why not just put them through the loudest but also most unintelligible sound system while you're at it? What's it matter if you don't offer refunds on tickets and they're all sold out -- you've made your money so why put any extra effort in past that?

You can only fool people once. If you're in any sort of business where you rely on reputation and an audience base that keeps coming back to see your shows, you're not going to last long if you alienate your audience one year and wonder why you can't sell out a single venue the next year you come through that city again.

And that's if you're someone important -- if you're just a community theatre, you're talking about alienating a crowd that you rely on to come and see a performance of every single production you put on.