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Everything has it's place

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by gafftaper, Nov 19, 2008.

  1. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    The debate at the end of this recent thread has me wanting to once again remind everyone of a point that seems to get lost around here from time to time. We tend to become gear snobs around here. But the reality is every product has a target market.

    Just as AMDJ/Chauvet/Elation are not appropriate for a traveling Cirque show, Martin/HES/VL are not appropriate for a small church/club/DJ. Different target markets have different needs. While [user]Van[/user] has a well documented hatred and mistrust of NSI dimmers. A church that runs a half dozen PARs for an hour every Sunday can find themselves VERY happy with a couple of NSI packs and find them "reliable" for years. Then there is Pie4Weebl. When he was borrowing money to start his business last year I'm sure he would have loved to go all HOG... but a bunch of "lower end" gear was what he really need and in his price range. Then there are guys around here who don't touch anything but Martin or VL and haven't programmed anything but a Hog in 10 years. In the middle are all different levels of quality and price. Each has it's own target audience. While it's fair to say this product is better made than that one, it's not right to call one junk. Your junk may be someone else's dream product.

    If you play nice, some day Derek may tell you how he saved the lighting design of an international beauty pageant, at a large Vegas arena, by running home to get his personal Chauvet four pack dimmer.

    Everything has a place and a target market.
     
  2. KKeen

    KKeen Member

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    thank you for that! Amen!
     
  3. Van

    Van CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    I concur Wholeheartedly!

    < although I wouldn't say I hate NSI, just mildly despise.>

    With Budgets, experience levels, and expected performances issues, in my mind there is gear out there for everyone. AMDJ would sell like gangbusters if there wasn't a demand for cheap semi disposable gear. Harbor Freight would be so popular if ther wasn't a need for cheap disposable tools.
    I think it'd be really cool to own a Ferrari Or a Lamborgini, but I don't have a garage, and I just wouldn't feel comfortable parking either on the street.
     
  4. LekoBoy

    LekoBoy Active Member

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    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 20, 2008
  5. DaveySimps

    DaveySimps CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Well said Gafftaper. At times we need to be reminded of certain things.

    ~Dave
     
  6. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Well well said! I for instance have more than once rented my NSI dimmers and controller to the place I work for some overhire or rental shows and was the one that opened the account with them years ago following years of very dependable use with my own gear. This in one of "them" type companies that is a bit higher profile in gear used. Me, never once had a problem with the NSI gear I have been around - though there is details about it that are different than say a CAE / Leprecon type item in how it's done, as stated for most uses one will never run into such situations or for the money the difference pays for itself.

    Just had a visit by our newest NSI rep today by chance.... no= she was not there to visit me she was there to visit another buyer and my department was a stop for them while visiting the shop. (I get the new Altman rep. at some point in the next day in Fall/Winter being the time for most company rep's to go on the road. This following last week visits from Walther and Pass Seymore if I remember correct amongs frequent vendor visits. Like if I can't go to LDI, at least to get a visit. Wish I could take up that offer recently to fly me out for a weekend to another company for a weekend but not my style. Seemingly more and more, less the trade shows and if not at least the same amount of visits, more outreach to those that don't do trade shows.) Where we discussed tech and especially fixture stuff like the "new" version of the Leo I'm going to get a sample of, and or a topic I presented to her about searching Colortran's paperwork and putting all the old gear including the Berkley stuff on the website as best possible in a way similar to what the Kliegl webstite does for the industry. Hopefully it will come to something this intent because in recent search Berkley I believe makes home owner stuff involved with water these days and that's about it. Nadda on the old fixtures which is a shame for that black hole.

    On that subject, about to get shipped some more antique fixtures in the coming week or two, I'm estatic. Pictures to follow.

    Back to the subject, everything has its use, NSI is a great brand in my opinion above some, equal to some and under others. On the other hand how old of a company are they, and that in the grand scale of things how old are most of the more popular moving light / light board companies? NSI / Colortran / Leviton isn't that old in this incarnation and no doubt not much of the brain trust at Colortran isn't at this point left at this point but still I would say they are well poised to so something big soon. Was told about a new light board they are presenting for the high school market that went above my head - no longer into light boards. Still they have Fresnels etc. as choices amongst other brands like L&E, Altman and others. All stuff to consider I'm more in tune with and want to look further into.

     
  7. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Useful post ship, hopefully the present powers at Leviton can get up all the old cut sheets of Colortran and Berkey. Altman put alot of their old stuff a few years ago, it's certainly a useful resource.

    Let us know what you think of the Leo.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2008
  8. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    I'll also certainly present the idea to the Altman rep. on the website (fought the battle before) not just a "current product" but also a resource. Mostly with lamp manufacturers I fought the battle in the past with lamps suddenly disappearing, but with Altman, another source to work on that would be easier. Leviton/NSI/Colortran/Lee/Strand/Berkey etc... (I think most recent owners) that in posting old gear manuals and specifications I don't expect much on due to liability issues. They got the manuals and specifications and or with an effort could get them but publishing them, even an advertising cut sheet in the same way a Kliegl website does is no doubt much harder in a corporate environment. Hopes are high but doubts are mostly on that thing.

    More hope with me with Altman in finding a different source for multi-conductor high-temp. wire with them back to the Rockbestos type than with Leviton wasting time in putting out the old specs I think and more immediate. I hate the current grades of high temp. Euro type silicone based 200c three conductor fixture whip on the market these days. Mostly lasts about one tour for us in having to replace it. Rockbestos "Heatzone" type wiring was discontinued years ago though last week I heard it was not from a rep. though she might be a bit green about the years in not being able to further get it for me. Ah' that high temp. like vinyl outer jacket with high temp. insulation and conductors pulled thru it. Nobody made a good high temp wire like they did as opposed to either solid fiberglass sleeved but too few stranded and not flexible enough and or silicone based but not say oil or cut resistant silicone in use these days.

    Big thing for me, in addition to handing the rep over to my wife that will hit him up on the new black light lens attachment and older CDM PAR problems amongsto other things. Love Altman for a company but also trust they will try harder in some ways.

    NSI/Leviton, presented some other ideas but they are mostly going control and or architectural at this point to the extend I saw the intent at this point. Fixtures are what I do and didn't see much common ground. She will present the problems I see with their commercial grade Edison plug as it were in going nowhere more than last time I met direct with that division with the problems with those plugs that I use but still cite problems with in the strain relief design with.

    Little steps..... still we got the BTH :) And I do mean "We" by way of this forum. Unfortunately the HPR lamp is about to be discontinued on the other hand.
     
  9. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Altman already has a "what's old" resource on their site, are you saying you would try to get them to expand it?
     
  10. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Oh' yea I would. I do specifically remember stuff no longer listed such as the say Altman #101 which I have used over the years and bought parts to before it suddenly no longer existed.
     
  11. gafftapegreenia

    gafftapegreenia CBMod CB Mods

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    Ya mean like this bad boy right here?


    So, what you want are the exploded view parts sheets? Those could be useful
     
  12. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    ah' people to check on me.

    Still check the 3.5Q5 with other than a mini-can base or the 360 or 64 both short of the Q' and there has been others in the zoom and say 6 series which have been hard to find diagrams for and or get parts to going back a long time. My various old Altman catalog and parts sheets constantly even if no longer available for parts to make easy work in figuring out what to do next.

    Mind you I do like how on the current fixtures they don't make part numbers disappear persay and or change colors instead and provide help in new parts that's all a good thing. Still there has been over the years a few minor problems such as say discontinuing the lamp socket base plate for a 360' but not making the 360Q plate drilled to fit the 360 base if I remember correctly and other problems on reflectors or gate reflectors fitting in similar but not so much discintued products. Not that they have to 40 years later keep active stock, more just info persay in conversion perhaps a template one can print etc.

    Altman is good for the most part in old gear still somewhat being there for the most part and noting changes - still difficult to track down origional part numbers in no longer existing in a progress they could make type of way but the exploded pictorials are really good still. Still much to work on this especially on part numbers also though they have started to do better on them also.
     
  13. church

    church Active Member

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    I agree, we often lose sight of the fact that everything has it its place and use. It would be nice if everyone had the ideal rig in the ideal venue with the ideal crew, the ideal audience and the ideal talent - but back here on planet earth we have to work with what we have. The ability to do this and produce amazing results is the challange that motivates us to do this stuff.

    After all it is relatively easy to make $500k of equipment produce results that look like you used $20k worth of kit it is harder to make $20k worth of kit look like you had $500k of kit.

    I own a range of lighting equipment from new S4s to forty year old Strand patt 23s, 123s and 223s with stuff from Times Square, Colortran, Altman, GAM and Elation. It all works it is all reliable it is all maintained it all fills a need. One of the biggest issue on the fixtures is lamp technology using the latest technology allows the older fixtures to perform better than ever anticipated when they were designed and for many users they work just great at a price they can afford.

    One thing we tend to forget is that all of this costs $ and it has to be paid for - utimately by the audience. It all comes down to the ability to put butts on seats - if we can't do that at a ticket price that covers the costs and makes $ then ultimately no one cares whether we use a S4 or an oil lamp. In truth the audience don't know one lighting fixture from another they are seeking entertainment, something to move them beyond there normal day to day life to make them laugh, think, cry and/or believe. We have a role in helping to make this happen using the equipment available.

    In the last six months I have seen 3 small black box theatres close (200 to 300 seats) because they couldn't put butts on seats - even with ticket prices in the $10 to $30 range. These were small professional opeartions. The next few years will I suspect see this situation worsen significantly, schools , colleges etc. will find it harder to get funding to replace equipment we will have to be inventive, willing to adapt and work with what we have.
     
  14. SerraAva

    SerraAva Active Member

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    Thank you church. One of the points I was trying to make in the other thread.
     
  15. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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