feedback! help

[AlexD]

I am doing a small production with my school, they have asked me to put in some sound reinforcement, and I have. I have used two C 1000s on ether side of the stage, at floor level touching the stage almost. The speakers at the moment are on ether side of the stage right next to the stage and the mics. When the next brake comes we are going to move the two speakers in front of the stage so the mics will be behind the speakers. I can't turn up the mics enough to pick up the sound before the feedback comes. I have set the eq's on the mixer to very low bass and high treble. Will this sort out the feed back problem and is there anything else I can do to sort it out

I also have a Beta 57 in the middle of the stage to pick up some solo parts. We do have some wireless headsets but they are very bad... the model(s) we have are a pro8HE headset, ATW-T701 UHF transmitter and an ATW-R700 receiver. We have three sets of these. Do you think that these will be better to use than a Beta 57 at mid stage? Or do you not think that this is necessary? Keeping in mind these are 9-13 year olds.

 

[epimetheus]

Move your C1000's away from the sides of the stage and get them away from the speakers. I'd place them about halfway between center stage and off stage on either side. You should also elevate the mics above the stage somewhat, a foot or so at least. Otherwise you'll pick up a lot of footsteps. That should help with your feedback. I'd use the headsets on the solo parts, even for 9-13 years olds, as long as it fits with the subject matter. I put lapel mics on that same age group for an Independence Day show at my church. It worked fine as long as your careful with the mutes. Kids say the darndest things...

 

[AlexD]

Thank you, Ill try that when they finish.

 

[AlexD]

I am going to be installing a permanent system soon and I was wondering what do you guys think about mounting condensers on the grid? Would it eliminate feedback if it was placed well and would it pick up the sound any differently? Do u recommend anything on that part?

 

[epimetheus]

I wouldn't advise permanantly mounted mics, ever. I have flown mics in front of the proscenium before for a choir show. It was only for recording though, not amplification. And it was a $2000 set of mics.

 

[AlexD]

we did a lot with the c 1000s and it wasn’t very good at all... it didn’t pick up anything from more than 1 and a half feet away from the mic... is this the type of mic or have i done something wrong with it?

In the end we I did set up the wireless mic’s and got the sounding good with no feedback. But the director though it was going too far...? So we decided to rig a beta 58 on the grid about centre stage (where most of the singing was happening) and that worked quite well. I think with a more suited mic for sound reinforcement it would have worked better but this worked well for the mean time ( we had a day to rig all the sound and lighting and sort out the details... I would have made a better system if I had more time but I didn’t )

 

[Anonymous067]

If you ever get a chance, browse through Shure's (the brand) webpage, particularly the FAQ database. Many of the questions you continue to ask have answers there.

You will also notice something to this effect on their website quite frequently as a response to questions such as this one. "Will microphone X pick up source Y"
Answer: "There is no such thing as a magic microphone. It's simple physics, the closer the microphone is to the source, the better it will sound, and the more gain before feedback. PERIOD."

They also answer this questions a lot. "Which microphone is best?"
Answer: "If we answered that from a money point of view, our microphone X, at a price of 1200 dollars would be BEST".

This may be their most expensive microphone in the world. You could go buy yourself a whole boatload of these microphones. If you don't have the ability, capability, and knowledge of how to position and condition this microphone, it isn't going to sound well! PERIOD.

Different microphones are made for different purposes, and they have to be used to the best of the condition they were designed for.

There is a reason that a wireless hairmounted microphone sounds the "best" (clear, sharp, no feedback issues, most gain before feedback), because the microphone is 6 inches from the mouth! If you put a 50,000 dollar mic 20 feet away from the mouth, and have a noisy room, is it going to sound good? NO!

Another line from Shure: Consider a talk show like Conan O'Brien or David Lettermen. They have essentially an unlimited budget and can buy the most expensive microphones in the world. However, they are still governed by the laws of physics and realize that in order to mic a person in the audience, the microphone MUST be close. You will notice they take a wired or wireless microphone into the audience so that it is within 1 foot of the persons mouth.

Get my point yet?

 

[Anonymous067]

we did a lot with the c 1000s and it wasn’t very good at all... it didn’t pick up anything from more than 1 and a half feet away from the mic... is this the type of mic or have i done something wrong with it?

In the end we I did set up the wireless mic’s and got the sounding good with no feedback. But the director though it was going too far...? So we decided to rig a beta 58 on the grid about centre stage (where most of the singing was happening) and that worked quite well. I think with a more suited mic for sound reinforcement it would have worked better but this worked well for the mean time ( we had a day to rig all the sound and lighting and sort out the details... I would have made a better system if I had more time but I didn’t )

And BTW, a Beta58a is the big brother of one of THE most known, popular, and most used microphone in LIVE SOUND to this day, which is the SM58. These are both two microphones that are most commonly used in concerts and churchs alike. There's a reason.

 

[Chris15]

There's a reason.

Because some years ago, someone decided they were the standard.

Folks there are far better vocal mics out there...

 

[derekleffew]

Better in what sense? Price, availability, familiarity, rider-friendliness, durability? I specifically did not mention sound quality, but there are also many worse vocal mics than the ubiquitous SM-58.

 

[Chris15]

Better in what sense? Price, availability, familiarity, rider-friendliness, durability? I specifically did not mention sound quality, but there are also many worse vocal mics than the ubiquitous SM-58.

And start that list of worse ones with the PG58 and follow with most things without a marked brand name.

How can you not consider sound quality?
Consider that at least in Australia it is cheaper to replace a 58 than replace the capsule if it goes.

I agree that durability wise they do have an advantage - we joked that the president uses 57s because the mic could be shot and would still keep going, albeit with the quality of a 57...

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a BAD mic, rather that just because it's the standard doesn't mean it's good...

 

[AlexD]

Well I did some work in the national threat in London and they had two reinforcement mic’s placed 10 feet away form the stage on the sides of the stage and they picked up the stage very well. Of cores I want good sound quality that kind of comes as an unsaid rule really. I mean like the c1000 s will pick up sound well at 1 foot but go back 150mm and its like half as good go back to 2 feet and u hear nothing... what I was trying to ask is, is there a purposely designed line of mic’s for sound reinforcement for stage use?

What I’m going to do is mount the mic’s on the grid above the stage because that seems to work very well, the grid is about 1.7m above the stage. I was thinking of placing 2 beta 58s down stage on ever side and a condenser up stage in the middle. Would this work?
(I am getting some one in I’m just trying to learn here. Learn by doing)

 

[Anonymous067]

is there a purposely designed line of mic’s for sound reinforcement for stage use?

That's usually the purpose of MOST microphones...?
Except for specific recording-only mics...which isn't what you're asking for I assume?

 

[Anonymous067]

And start that list of worse ones with the PG58 and follow with most things without a marked brand name.

How can you not consider sound quality?
Consider that at least in Australia it is cheaper to replace a 58 than replace the capsule if it goes.

I agree that durability wise they do have an advantage - we joked that the president uses 57s because the mic could be shot and would still keep going, albeit with the quality of a 57...

I'm not saying that it's necessarily a BAD mic, rather that just because it's the standard doesn't mean it's good...

Ok ok. We all know the SM58 isn't the best mic around. But like you said, it's not a BAD mic, and you really shouldn't take shame in having it, just pride if you have better (IMHO).

I'd be happy to own a ton of Beta58's, I'd take those over the crappy AKG (bottom of line) "vocal" mics any day...

Not to mention, lots of hot names use SM58's for their lead as well as background vocalists...

 

[derekleffew]

... what I was trying to ask is, is there a purposely designed line of mic’s for sound reinforcement for stage use? ...

That's usually the purpose of MOST microphones...? ...

Blah067, I think what AlexD is looking for is a shotgun mic, or perhaps a boundary mic.

 

[AlexD]

I was thinking about shotgun mics but will they have enough range to pick up a stage well enough? If not you will need a more than two right? And they do cost quite a bit.

Also I looked at some boundary mics and don’t quit get what they are for... It said in a description that they can b used for recording but I can’t see them being any good for that. Are they the mics that are placed on the front of the stage on the floor? I keep seeing them being used but I never ask what they are.

 

[Anonymous067]

Blah067, I think what AlexD is looking for is a shotgun mic, or perhaps a boundary mic.

That's fine and dandy, but I still don't think Alex understands that shotgun and boundary mics are not magical. In a semi-noisy room, a shotgun microphone won't sound half as good as a well positioned lav mic (probably wireless).

Even "choir" mics require great cooperation from the choir, and the mics must be relatively close. Choirs aren't exactly quiet either. If you have a loud room, with a timid 8 year old center stage, a shotgun from 50 feet away isn't going to do you much good!

 

[Anonymous067]

Again, from Shure's FAQ section...

Shotgun microphones are useful for camera or recording work when the microphone has to be about 3-4 feet away from the talkers and a PA system is not involved.

Shotgun microphones should not be used for public address applications. The rear polar response of a shotgun microphone is not consistent and has many lobes that are unpredictable. A shotgun mic is not an "audio zoom lens".

Also read this, since my word isn't "good enough"
Find an Answer.

Getting my point yet?

 

[Anonymous067]

I was thinking about shotgun mics but will they have enough range to pick up a stage well enough? If not you will need a more than two right? And they do cost quite a bit.

Also I looked at some boundary mics and don’t quit get what they are for... It said in a description that they can b used for recording but I can’t see them being any good for that. Are they the mics that are placed on the front of the stage on the floor? I keep seeing them being used but I never ask what they are.

Perhaps you can't see them being used in recording because you haven't had any experience with them before. I didn't use boundary microphones until a recent musical. When I decided, I don't need to mic the taps live...but I listened to the recording and decided, yep, I need to record the taps.
Sometimes engineers use mics for different applications, and you shouldn't assume that every microphone you see is being used for what YOU hear.

Another example to this is ambiance microphones. I recently did a gig with IEM (In ear monitor, look it up...), and had two mics placed downstage LR, and were used ONLY to pickup the audience. People frequently asked "why are you putting these mics into your speakers?". The truth is however, they weren't being used in the mains (or floor monitors), only in my ears. Don't ever assume...(if you ever do any REAL troubleshooting, you'll learn this quick).

Generally, microphone companies (well known ones anyhow...) are smart people. If they say it's primary use is for recording, that's probably what it's best at. No offense Alex, but any reputable microphone company is much smarter than you, or myself for that matter. I reiterate the fact that if they say something is for X, it probably is. Is that all it can be used for...no! Is it what it was DESIGNED for? Yes.

 

[AlexD]

I know that a well placed mic can make it work much better. I was just asking was it feasible to use shotgun mics. I’m so use to close mic recordings it instantly went into my head when I saw recording on the boundary mic I starting thinking how would you use that in a dry room? I completely forgot about recording on stages. btw, I havent red up on boundry mics yet that's what i was going to do today.

Also what I am trying to ask is that do condenser mics vary in the distance that they can pick up the sound and dose the pre amp make any different?