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Fire, but more complicated... =)

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by ogivol, Oct 29, 2008.

  1. ogivol

    ogivol Member

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    Basically, were doing Beauty and the Beast this year which is a beast of a show excusing the pun :neutral:

    One special which we plan to use is a fireplace special, but not an ordinary one. In fact there isn't a fireplace! We need to shine light on the actors to make it appear as if they were sitting in front of a fireplace.

    The basics of it are simple, a source 4, a dual color gobo-rotator (which we have to rent, out theater isn't the worlds most advanced)

    But the debate lies in what type of gobo/gel do we need. Should we used a glass/steel gobo with color shaped like a fire? or gels that look like fire colors with a fire gobo?

    It just goes on....

    I'd like to hear your suggestions for this issue, and hopefully soon as deadlines are looming :!:

    Also if you make a suggestion, please provide if possible, a link to a product which would work for what we need, we need to order the gobo and we would like a good place to get one.

    Thank you!,
    Ogivol
     
  2. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    I wouldn't use a gobo at all. Try three fixtures, whatever you have, gelled red, orange, and amber, on three dimmers. Write yourself a nice little random chase and there you have it. I'm assuming the fireplace is just offstage in the #1 wing, so the fixtures would be mounted in a shinkicker position.
     
  3. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Rosco has some recipes for fire on their website:
    Rosco US : Technotes : Patterns : Fire Elements

    A friend of mine used one of these in "Quilters"... I think it was the "rising flames" recipe. It looked great but was a raging fire and not what you are looking for in a fireplace.

    I bet if you send [USER]Kelite[/USER] a P.M. he will be happy to put you in touch with someone at Apollo who will help you pick something out from their catalog.

    OR... you could just use three lights on a chase sequence as Derek described. If you want to be realistic, this is the correct way to go. Think about it. If someone is standing by the fireplace we see the effects of the fire's light flickering on them (three light chase). We wouldn't see the actual fire on them (gobo effect).
     
  4. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    If you want to go with the rotator I would take two different organic breakups to rotate and a split color gel. For the gel I would do an amber and red-orange cut on the diagonal.
     
  5. derekleffew

    derekleffew Resident Curmudgeon Senior Team Premium Member

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    If you need help visualizing the effects of a gobo rotatator, go here: Gobo Visualizer || Design Tools || CablePick.Com.
     
  6. loki

    loki Member

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    Somthing i have done in the past with making fire (It may not work in your situation, but a variation might) Is to put two standard incandescent globes (1 Red, 1 Yellow) and put a Fluro starter in the line between the switch and the yellow one, it gives a true random effect to the light.

    It has worked extreamly well for me in the past (in small venues <100 seats) so you might be able to adapt it for a larger audiance
     
  7. len

    len Well-Known Member

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  8. BillESC

    BillESC Well-Known Member Premium Member

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  9. icewolf08

    icewolf08 CBMod CB Mods

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    All of those fixtures generate effects that can be generated with a source 4 and a twinspin. One flame gobo in the template slot, static, and one rotating breakup to "animate" with some amber gel should give exactly the same effect as the flame projectors. If the OP has source fours, renting a twinspin is probably going to be more cost effective than renting a flame projector unit.
     
  10. soundlight

    soundlight Well-Known Member

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    If you have a Twinspin or Vortex 360, you could put a very open breakup (EX Gam "Large Breakup" #223) in each side of the rotator, so you don't get any circular movement in the projection. I've used this with fire and water effects, and it works very well. Then use the split gel that has been discussed and a static fire gobo in the pattern slot.
     
  11. cdub260

    cdub260 CBMod CB Mods

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    I've done some pretty convincing fire effects using a homemade fire box, a fairly simple piece of equipment that consists of several medium screw lamp bases inside a frame with red and amber gel stapled to it.

    CIMG0346.JPG

    This is then controlled by a GAM Flicker Master.

    Ignore the items in the background. They're part of a different fire effect.
     
  12. len

    len Well-Known Member

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    No argument about that working as well. However, given that the OP said this would have to be a rental anyway, why rent a S4, two gobos, a twinspin, etc. when a single unit that is basically plug and play is available? And likely cheaper.

    Whichever way you go, I'd call Bill from a post or two above this one. He rents to deadbeats like me, so I'm almost certain he'd rent to the OP.
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2008
  13. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    HOLY CRAP Cdub! I liked the home made box approach. The idea sounded great... then I clicked the link for the Flicker Master. $845! :shock: I think my vote is for a chase effect on the console.

    AGAIN back to the original post. Is the idea to project fire as if someone is covered in flame or the idea to project the effect flickering light from standing near a fire. Those are very different things. We've been getting ideas for both in this thread.
     
  14. cdub260

    cdub260 CBMod CB Mods

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    I believe there are other devices that will create the same effect for less money. I only used the Flicker Master because the Pageant already had an older version of it when I joined the staff back in 2000. Renting one might be a viable option for ogivol.
     
  15. ogivol

    ogivol Member

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    I may have to be a bit clearer on this :rolleyes:

    We have plenty of source fours, thats not what we need to rent :eek:

    I meant we need to rent a gobo rotator (if that is what we decide upon), and on top of that let me fully explain what is required.


    Imagine your sitting in front of a simple fireplace, how do you replicate the effect of the light reflecting on you with lighting instruments?

    We do not need to project a fireplace, nor do we need to project fire in any way shape or form.

    We need only to recreate the effect of the reflection from a fireplace.




    As for the location of this effect on stage (and this does matter), it is to be placed in the orchestra pit (which is on the same level as the audience except very close to the stage)

    The actors are to sit near the edge in a chair. They make a comment on the brillance of the fireplace "ooooh...nice fire...." type thing. The audience is essentially the fireplace although that is not to say we need the reflection all across the stage, we just need it far stage left and almost completely downstage. The light comes from audience level to hit their faces/bodies with the reflection of light from a fireplace.


    Hope that clears things up and I do appreciate the replys so far, I especially like the chase idea, although I miss how it would look like the reflection of fire (ignoring the similarity in color)
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2008
  16. GreyWyvern

    GreyWyvern Apollo Staff

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    Programming a chase with with a fast rate would give it a flicker effect.
     
  17. TripleG

    TripleG Member

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    I have a design that worked great for me in a very similar situation. Depending on how much space you have to work with, and my ability to describe it to you, it may work perfectly for your need.

    Take 3 full sheets of gel (a yellow 312, red 27, amber 21 or flavors of your choice) and put them on top of each other.

    Start 4" from the top of the gel and 2" from the edge. With a blade, cut a straight line down and stop 4" from the bottom of the gel sheet.

    Continue to move over 1" at a time making the same cut until you get 2" from the other edge.

    Spread them out a bit with the each sheet overlapping the other but somewhat random with the cuts. This will give it a somewhat "Confetti Streamer" effect but they won't be loose.

    I built a small square frame (24" x 24" or so on legs) and taped this to the frame for rigidity.

    Put that in front of 2 - Source Fours and put a SMALL fan on low behind the lamps at a slight angle. This will allow the breeze to pass through the gel while giving it a "shimmer" effect. Play with the fixture and fan angles to get the best flutter from the gel strips.

    I found that crossing the beams to each side of the actors gave me the best "shadow" effect like a real fire gives while still keeping the shimmer. The color will mix nicely on the actors and hopefully give you the effect you are looking for. I also programmed a VERY slow, slightly dimming/slightly brightening chase on the lamps. Depending on the brightness of the stage you won't need the fixtures very hot.

    My 2 cents...
     
    dvsDave and (deleted member) like this.
  18. BillESC

    BillESC Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    Ok, here's a down and dirty fireplace effect that we used for the off Broadway musical Touch in the early 70's and it was very realistic.

    Using three A shape lamps, one red and two amber (wattage to be determined,) rig them with propellers. Think Christmas and candles. The effect works quite well and the entire rig might cost $ 50.00.
     
  19. dvsDave

    dvsDave Benevolent Dictator Administrator Senior Team CB Mods Fight Leukemia

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    Could we get a picture of your rig? That sounds really neat!
     
  20. TripleG

    TripleG Member

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    I might be able to do a quick pencilCAD of the rig but it went the way of "That was easy enough to mock up, go ahead and toss it" several years ago.

    We had the advantage of being able to use it offstage down left behind the first leg. We set a couch parallel with the house and had the effect work off of the couch and their faces to great success.

    I'll see what I can draw up.
     

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