Fire Curtains & AHJs

Footer, thanks, ours is Zetex as I recall.

Ours is a also a mid-50's design, counterweighted and motorized, with a leaking and now deactivated motor. Thus it stays out - hopefully. as otherwise no way to raise it.

As we are currently going through spasms of updates to the assorted fire alarm systems, they are planning a motor replacement with trip mechanism tied into the alarm system, so as to bring all up to code.

Fortunately the engineers fully understand that the curtain is much preferable to a deluge. We are on edge about this as there's seemingly a NYC code that declares that if the distance from floor to bottom of a certain grid point is less then 50 ft, out comes the curtain, in goes the deluge, which is what they did on our smaller space next door getting renovated. That space had a grid the same height as the larger hall, thus we pray and give sacrifices weekly to the alarm gods.
 
Thats what mine is too. Steel framed, DS is wood matching our proscenium walls. Upstage is Zetex. In between is solid plate steel. the whole thing weighs about 14 tons.

@BillConnerFASTC , this wall was (and still is) motorized. There was roughly 40# on the release line. Without that much the clutch would not throw. 1960's design... really really large motor and clutch.

Its now all been replaced with a Clancy system. Dash pot was removed... motor was replaced... cut line replaced with pin release.... etc.
In Hamilton, Ontario, Canada, The Russel Johnson / Artec designed "Great Hall" opened. The 17,800 pound counter-weighted matching faced acoustic wall was steel faced on the U/S side and immediately behind it was the 11,000 pound asbestos fire curtain.
The drive for the acoustic wall was at grid level DSL and the drive for the fire curtain at grid level DSR. This was in the fall of 1973 when the motor drives weren't soft-starts and the grid flexed scarily when the drives were energized. 17,800 pounds of acoustic wall with 17,800 pounds of counter-weights divided equally on either side of the prosc' left and right. Similarly for the asbestos with half of its counter-weights on either side. They both remained in service for many years before their supporting sheaves required replacement. When it was time to replace the sheaves, the wall was brought in to its low trim with its seal compressed on the deck and two very large scissor lifts were rented, one SR and the other SL so the counter-weights could be transferred from their arbors and stored on the scissor lifts while the sheaves were replaced. I'm unsure of the present status of the asbestos curtain. I know at one point it was entirely painted with two coats of a transparent sealant but it may have been totally replaced by now.
The acoustic wall and fire curtain ran in separate vertical slots. When both were in to deck level, and the double-width person-doors were closed on SR and SL, we could load in and hang a multi-trailer road show backstage with neither our activities disturbing a full symphony rehearsal out on the two fore-stage lifts nor the symphony folks disturbing us. (Other than the muso's kept wanting our coffee, and for free. The nerve of those A.F. of M'ers!
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
SteveB: re the NYC code for fire cutain vs deluge, talk to Marymount Manhattan College theater. Their grid is around 30' or 35'. They have a braille fire curtain. I think distance from top of proscenium to grid is about 12' or so. If there's a 50' rule for the grid height (which sounds odd), this could be an example of an exception.
 
It looks like NYC has adopted the IBC and amended these requirements, changing 50' to 40' as the criteria for separating stage from auditorium, as well as limiting the options for how that separation can be achieved. Keep in mind the 50' or 40' is to the deck above, not the gridiron.
 
Thanks for that link Bill.

From what I read, if the grid deck is less than 40 ft above stage deck, deluge is required, If over 40 ft. can be curtain or deluge. Our stage deck to grid deck is about 44 ft.

Which begs the question as to why ARUP opted to go with a deluge, replacing a steel framed, double walled fire curtain, on the adjacent space being renovated. I suspect it was cost, in that they would have needed to do much work to renovate and bring up to code the existing curtain, or they might have needed to replace entirely. They opted deluge, telling us the code said the stage didn't have the height. As well the stage is getting a monstrous winched and flying acoustical shell located at the proscenium, functioning like a large garage door. It's huge and heavy and is located right where the fire curtain used to be.

Mind that these decisions were about 8 years ago and I've no clue when the NYC code might have changed.
 
Thanks for that link Bill.

From what I read, if the grid deck is less than 40 ft above stage deck, deluge is required, If over 40 ft. can be curtain or deluge. Our stage deck to grid deck is about 44 ft.

Which begs the question as to why ARUP opted to go with a deluge, replacing a steel framed, double walled fire curtain, on the adjacent space being renovated. I suspect it was cost, in that they would have needed to do much work to renovate and bring up to code the existing curtain, or they might have needed to replace entirely. They opted deluge, telling us the code said the stage didn't have the height. As well the stage is getting a monstrous winched and flying acoustical shell located at the proscenium, functioning like a large garage door. It's huge and heavy and is located right where the fire curtain used to be.

Mind that these decisions were about 8 years ago and I've no clue when the NYC code might have changed.

Your sister school Hostos up in the Bronx also has a deluge... and it has gone off at least twice since install from what the guys there told me. Both times were due to alarm tests gone wrong.
 
Thanks for that link Bill.

From what I read, if the grid deck is less than 40 ft above stage deck, deluge is required, If over 40 ft. can be curtain or deluge. Our stage deck to grid deck is about 44 ft.

Which begs the question as to why ARUP opted to go with a deluge, replacing a steel framed, double walled fire curtain, on the adjacent space being renovated. I suspect it was cost, in that they would have needed to do much work to renovate and bring up to code the existing curtain, or they might have needed to replace entirely. They opted deluge, telling us the code said the stage didn't have the height. As well the stage is getting a monstrous winched and flying acoustical shell located at the proscenium, functioning like a large garage door. It's huge and heavy and is located right where the fire curtain used to be.

Mind that these decisions were about 8 years ago and I've no clue when the NYC code might have changed.
As I read it and as it is written in the IBC, over 40' (or 50' outside NYC) you have to have a fire safety curtain OR a deluge system aka water curtain.

The measurement of height does not involve the grid. It's to the roof deck - to the metal deck typically when there is just a roof - or to the same deck that is a floor deck when there are rooms above the stage. It's a volume limit, not flying or anything else. I suppose if the roof sits on your loft block beams, and you consider the roof beams your grid, ok, same. I've just never considered roof framing that blocks are clamped to a grid.
 
I'm trying to dig up some notes on a fire model ARUP did a few years ago about this topic. I know based on those models they made several recommendations for updates to NFPA 80. I'll see what I can find.

Ethan
 
@egilson1, is this what you're looking for?
 

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Your sister school Hostos up in the Bronx also has a deluge... and it has gone off at least twice since install from what the guys there told me. Both times were due to alarm tests gone wrong.

I'll bet that sucked.

Our public safety department has no clue how the centralized alarm system works. We've had 2 small fires in our building this past month, caused by the steam fitters welding pipes (no comment). In both cases the PS Dept. Did get the building cleared (there was obvious smoke), but could not clear the detector nor silence alarm. Our PM knew where the button was. You think that after the first time they would learn something.
 
As I read it and as it is written in the IBC, over 40' (or 50' outside NYC) you have to have a fire safety curtain OR a deluge system aka water curtain.

The measurement of height does not involve the grid. It's to the roof deck - to the metal deck typically when there is just a roof - or to the same deck that is a floor deck when there are rooms above the stage. It's a volume limit, not flying or anything else. I suppose if the roof sits on your loft block beams, and you consider the roof beams your grid, ok, same. I've just never considered roof framing that blocks are clamped to a grid.

Got it. In our case it'll be the original roof deck (the roof essentially). That's well over 50 ft. from stage deck. Might be a volume problem though as they did make the existing stage smaller by installing a new wall for a hallway on SL, cut the wing space by 15 ft. Not sure if it's under the 1000 sq. ft. limit.
 
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IIRC without looking, the only change, for which the Arup report was some of the substantiation, was elimination of the fusible links.

As the proponent of the FPRF research project, I don't feel the Arup report met the purpose or answered the questions. I don't recall any other changes in the 15 or so years I've been on the NFPA80 committee.
 
I'll bet that sucked.

Our public safety department has no clue how the centralized alarm system works. We've had 2 small fires in our building this past month, caused by the steam fitters welding pipes (no comment). In both cases the PS Dept. Did get the building cleared (there was obvious smoke), but could not clear the detector nor silence alarm. Our PM knew where the button was. You think that after the first time they would learn something.
@SteveB Your optimism is refreshing.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 

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