BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Download the BCMC report for the basis of the IBC and close to LSC.
http://theatreconsultants.org/archives/position-papers/
http://theatreconsultants.org/archives/position-papers/
Fire Curtains. What dictates whether one should be in a space?
- Thread starterChris Chapman
- Start date
Euphroe
Member
I am sure Bill deals with these subjects more than I have recently. But it appears the requirement for a fire curtain is triggered by the code applicable to the proscenium wall:
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2012/icod_ibc_2012_4_par255.htm
I know previously the proscenium opening size governed whether the curtain could be a brail type, or was required to be a straight lift.
I was acrobatic rigging project manager for large show (several years ago), where the grid had been designed to extend past the stage and out over the house. I thought that odd, because the grid crossed the proscenium line and was not sealed/sealable. I mentioned it, but this was an overseas project with an overseas architect, and my mandate was performer flying, so I did not go policing other people's work where I wasn't sure of the applicable regulations. A couple of months later, panic ensued when the architect discovered the requirement that the proscenium line had to be sealed/sealable. This resulted in ad-hoc concrete pockets being cast above the grid, and I had to work around my winch lines routed through fire-lined tubes, etc. . Also my loft blocks had to be located in little chambers with poor access. An ugly fix that could have been avoided if the architect, the TD, the Prod Manager, etc. knew the first thing about theater construction and codes. And this was very high budget operation.
http://publicecodes.cyberregs.com/icod/ibc/2012/icod_ibc_2012_4_par255.htm
I know previously the proscenium opening size governed whether the curtain could be a brail type, or was required to be a straight lift.
I was acrobatic rigging project manager for large show (several years ago), where the grid had been designed to extend past the stage and out over the house. I thought that odd, because the grid crossed the proscenium line and was not sealed/sealable. I mentioned it, but this was an overseas project with an overseas architect, and my mandate was performer flying, so I did not go policing other people's work where I wasn't sure of the applicable regulations. A couple of months later, panic ensued when the architect discovered the requirement that the proscenium line had to be sealed/sealable. This resulted in ad-hoc concrete pockets being cast above the grid, and I had to work around my winch lines routed through fire-lined tubes, etc. . Also my loft blocks had to be located in little chambers with poor access. An ugly fix that could have been avoided if the architect, the TD, the Prod Manager, etc. knew the first thing about theater construction and codes. And this was very high budget operation.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
You got! Or should it be "By George, he's got it!"
If the fire hazard in an area is great enough (as determined by height and area no, rather than if something was "retractable", or a number of other poorly founded ideas previously, and certainly not as determined by a label on a drawing) it should be compartmentalized. That means enclosed by fire resistive constriction. So if you have to enclose it by walls, on a stage one of those is likely to be what we call a proscenium wall, and just like other openings in the walls are required to be protected by a fire rated door, the large opening in the in a proscenium wall should be protected, and since doors are not always practical (though I have used rated rolling doors), we have a special way to protect proscenium openings called fire safety curtains.
It's all very simple and straight forward but not many get it. So my sincere congratulations to Euphrow for first, seeking out and reading the words in the code, and second, getting it.
If the stage is lower than 50', you just have to separate it from the rest of the building (by 1 hour versus 2 hour construction), but the audience can stay in the compartment.
Its not perfect. I think that the occupant load (number of seats) should be a factor, as it is in some other countries, and currently the stage requiring a proscenium wall does not have to be separated from the rest of the building - it's just the wall - and no rated construction around the end of the wall.
RedMapleMG
New Member
Hi folks,
Can anyone advise if the 'stage' vs 'platform' distinctions apply in Canada (Ontario)?
I've noticed bands playing in bars on raised platforms (or just on ground level) with practically no regard for access routes etc.
What definitively defines a 'stage' or 'theatre'? I get the points about fly towers acting as chimneys, that's obvious enough.
But what if a raised performance space has no fly tower, no wing space, no backstage/dressing rooms (with fixed audience seating)? Sort of like an old style school house platform. Is that still a 'stage' or a 'theatre'?
More specifically, what determines the need for a fire curtain (in Ontario/Canada)? Does construction material matter? What about country barns converted to theatres, no fire curtain?
Thanks.
Can anyone advise if the 'stage' vs 'platform' distinctions apply in Canada (Ontario)?
I've noticed bands playing in bars on raised platforms (or just on ground level) with practically no regard for access routes etc.
What definitively defines a 'stage' or 'theatre'? I get the points about fly towers acting as chimneys, that's obvious enough.
But what if a raised performance space has no fly tower, no wing space, no backstage/dressing rooms (with fixed audience seating)? Sort of like an old style school house platform. Is that still a 'stage' or a 'theatre'?
More specifically, what determines the need for a fire curtain (in Ontario/Canada)? Does construction material matter? What about country barns converted to theatres, no fire curtain?
Thanks.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Not sure if any of this applies in Canada but I think they do use the NFPA codes - some.
Life Safety Code defines stage as "A space within a building used for entertainment and utilizing drops or scenery or other stage effects." and platform as "The raised area within a building used for the presentation of music, plays, or other entertainment." Think of stage as a room with a function - like a kitchen - and platform as a specific feature - like a base cupboard and counter. Stages don't have to be raised, like they often are not in a black box theatre.
I believe the current definitions and requirements are not bad, much better than they use to be, but not perfect. It assumes that there is an above average hazard for fire because of props, scenery, and lighting. Further it basically uses area and height as the basis for determining the size of the hazard, the amount of combustibles possible being limited by less area and lower height.
So, forget whether its called a barn or has wings, but how much volume is there for combustibles. Yes, if it is an assembly occupancy with a stage, construction
Life Safety Code defines stage as "A space within a building used for entertainment and utilizing drops or scenery or other stage effects." and platform as "The raised area within a building used for the presentation of music, plays, or other entertainment." Think of stage as a room with a function - like a kitchen - and platform as a specific feature - like a base cupboard and counter. Stages don't have to be raised, like they often are not in a black box theatre.
I believe the current definitions and requirements are not bad, much better than they use to be, but not perfect. It assumes that there is an above average hazard for fire because of props, scenery, and lighting. Further it basically uses area and height as the basis for determining the size of the hazard, the amount of combustibles possible being limited by less area and lower height.
So, forget whether its called a barn or has wings, but how much volume is there for combustibles. Yes, if it is an assembly occupancy with a stage, construction
My Understanding of the current code is that as long as your "fly space" the distance from the deck to the bottom of the grid, is under 50' No fire curtain is required. Most theatres being built in High schools and the the like are coming in at 48' to the grid.
48' aff = no fire curtain
50' aff = fire curtain
Types of acceptable curtains are usually dictated by the AHJ.
48' aff = no fire curtain
50' aff = fire curtain
Types of acceptable curtains are usually dictated by the AHJ.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Two minor clarifications:
Over 50' requires proscenium opening protection (curtain, deluge, or smoke control) so it can be 50'.
The height is measured from the lowest point on the stage floor to the highest point on the roof or floor deck over the stage. That is not what I think of as grid, but I suppose it could be on occasion.
I do a lot of 49'-8" to top of steel, where the roof deck sits. When this was written it meant bottom of floor or roof deck but is often misinterpreted to be top of roof deck today.
PS: download BCMC report linked above. It is the basis for stage requirements in the IBC.
How many HTG (Honest To God) deluge curtains are you seeing installed these days. I keep thinking back to one that destroyed a building under construction in downtown NYC back in about 1990.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
A few. Just did Alley Theatre. I've done quite a few over past 35 years. They need to have pre-action controls per the sprinkler standard however.
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RedMapleMG
New Member
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
It was difficult for a while, when the determining factor was if things (scenery, curtains) were "retractable". It was very inconsistently interpreted. Higher space because the plans did not show rigging got away without protection, recital halls with large doors where scenery could be "retracted" from the stage were required to have protection. It was this goofiness that gave rise to the Braille style FSC.
The changes to this being determined by the size of the stage - area and height - has made this much more consistently interpreted.
The changes to this being determined by the size of the stage - area and height - has made this much more consistently interpreted.
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