Fire hose connections and hoses on stage

[MNicolai]

I feel like this part is inaccurate. The system should be in weight to such a point where the ropes are no more than a means of moving heavy scenery. If you are relying on the rope lock to prevent an out of weight condition, you have a larger problem than a fire. That's not to say that over time fire wouldn't deform/destroy the wire rope that is actually suspending the scenery, but I think that would take longer than the ropes themselves burning. Not saying it is a good idea to be in the theater if a fire is happening, but the ropes disappearing shouldn't cause any sort of safety condition.

Just add water, from a hose. sprinklers. or open heads for a deluge curtain. Battens with wet soft goods get real heavy, real fast.

 

[danTt]

Just add water, from a hose. sprinklers. or open heads for a deluge curtain. Battens with wet soft goods get real heavy, real fast.

Sure, and if hard scenery on the ground burns the batten gets very out of weight in the other direction and you have the same issue. Neither of these would be solved if the handlines didn't exist though... I wouldn't anticipate a handline holding a soaked curtain or a batten with rapidly burning scenery. I wasn't disagreeing with the idea of a flyhousae being a terribly dangerous place to be iin the event of a fire, I was more disagreeing with the idea that the big safety issue in this case would be that the handlines might catch on fire and burn. I think we can both agree that being anywhere near a burning stage is not a good life plan!

 

[MNicolai]

Sure, and if hard scenery on the ground burns the batten gets very out of weight in the other direction and you have the same issue. Neither of these would be solved if the handlines didn't exist though... I wouldn't anticipate a handline holding a soaked curtain or a batten with rapidly burning scenery. I wasn't disagreeing with the idea of a flyhousae being a terribly dangerous place to be iin the event of a fire, I was more disagreeing with the idea that the big safety issue in this case would be that the handlines might catch on fire and burn. I think we can both agree that being anywhere near a burning stage is not a good life plan!

Agreed. For all intents and purposes, the greatest hazard here isn't to stagehands or performers who haven't egressed in time. It's the hazard to the fire service coming in after and trying to clear the place and knock down the fire.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

One of the problems of the Iroquois as a model - 160+ sets all hung on manila rope soaked in kerosene to preserve it. Forget the acres of linen painted with oil based paints, I suspect just the lift lines were more fuel then on most stages today.

It takes quite a while for a fire to grow that large on stage. Clearly if you can't see the fire and see your way to containing it quickly, just get out.

Probably repeating myself here but the largest stage fire I was on stage for was a pretty well engulfed leg. Tech rehearsal and I grabbed a Matt knife where I'd been cutting gel and grabbed the tallescope (couldn't do this with a genie) and went up and cut thevtie lines. Two people on stage carried the bundle outdoors, where it burst into flame. New flameproofed memorable velour. One reason I don't rely on flameproofing at all.

 

[RonaldBeal]

As a touring crew, If there are hose cabinets, they tend to have the hoses removed as often as not.

One interesting change the fire service has noticed is that the a modern fire outgasses much more toxic chemicals than a fire did 50 years ago. With glues, vinyls, plastic, and synthetic coatings now days, compared to cotton, wool, wood and nails of old, There are a lot "IDLH" (Immediate Danger to Life and Health) chemicals put into the air in a modern fire.
In the 2003 Station Nightclub fire, Hydrogen Cyanide and Carbon Monoxide was produced to deadly levels within an estimated 90 seconds of the start of the fire once the sound insulation ignited.
Once a small fire has transitioned from an incipient stage, where it can be put out with a fire extinguisher, to a growing stage, staying to fight it can be deadly without the proper PPE. Hose cabinets made sense when a fires byproducts didn't turn deadly so quickly, but I think the reason the fire service no longer supports them is the realization that someone without turnouts and SCBA is more likely to perish trying to suppress the fire than evacuating.
As a note: generally hose cabinets are considered "occupant use hoses" which is why a fire department won't use them... They have no idea how they are maintained, how they perform, ect... And these days training an occupant anything beyond an extinguisher and evacuate is a huge liability concern.

RB

It's my every several years appeal for input and comments on requiring fire hoses on stages. It's occasioned by the Assembly Occupancy Committee for the Life Safety Code forming a task group on Stages and Fire Protection Systems. The scope was originally focused around the relative temperatures - fusible link ratings or heat detectors or other - for the automatic operation of the of the fire sprinklers, vents, and fire safety curtain (or deluge).
However hose cabinet requirements are once again an issue. In the past, the SML community and like minded theatre people have expressed strong support for retaining hose cabinets with hoses on stages. While once more commonly required in other occupancies, stages are about the only place left where they are still required by code. While some may disagree, these are and have always been for occupant use, not fire service use. Just as most people here would not rely upon a never used or maintained sound system, the fire service is equally unlikely to rely on a hose in a cabinet on stage.

Over my 25 years of being actively involved in the development of the national model building and fire codes, I have tended to speak in favor of keeping the requirement, and the representatives of the fire service have generally supported deleting the requirement. Simply, I believe technicians want them and would use them; the fire service thinks occupants should egress and leave fire fighting to the fire service.

So some questions came up from the task group.
1. If you work on a stage or stages with these fire hoses, have you had training in using them?
2. Have you ever used or seen these used in a fire, or heard a reliable report of their use?
3. Do you favor retaining the requirement?

Kind of a bonus question but increasingly I hear reports of local authorities over riding the requirement and not allowing the installation of these or requiring at least the elimination or removal of the actual hose, and only keeping the connection. Have you been made aware of this on the stages where you work?

Thanks in advance for your constructive responses.
--
Bill Conner Fellow of the ASTC

 

[lwinters630]

No
No
No
We had them installed during our last remodel a few years ago. On our last inspection this spring by the AHJ and fire dept. The fire Department said they won't use them.

As for training, my job will be to pull the alarm, clear the house , not fight fires.

 

[RickR]

@BillConnerFASTC I generally hate to necro-post but would love to hear any news on this topic.

As you might expect a fire hose cabinet showed up on a set of plans for a school theater. On top of all the usual fire issues as discussed, the school is in an area that is quite subject to wildfires, such as made big news the past several summers. So everyone is rather touchy on the subject.

One issue that never came up in the previous discussions is the ubiquitous electricity on stage and it's incompatibility with water. Off the cuff, I'm thinking I would far rather have a chemical extinguisher that a water hose.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Without re-reading all of every post, thus risking repeating, the NFPA Assembly Occupancies committee did indeed remove the requirement for hoses and hose cabinets on stages. It is however still in the International Building Code and therefore required on most new build stages in the US. One of a number of tasks on my code to do list.

 

[RickR]

I'm open to helping in some way. Lighting/electrical is my forte but I'm happy to do some leg work for you.

 

[TimMc]

@BillConnerFASTC I generally hate to necro-post but would love to hear any news on this topic.

As you might expect a fire hose cabinet showed up on a set of plans for a school theater. On top of all the usual fire issues as discussed, the school is in an area that is quite subject to wildfires, such as made big news the past several summers. So everyone is rather touchy on the subject.

One issue that never came up in the previous discussions is the ubiquitous electricity on stage and it's incompatibility with water. Off the cuff, I'm thinking I would far rather have a chemical extinguisher that a water hose.

Clear, clean water is less conductive than you might think. Water with dissolved salts, higher mineral content and chemical contaminants (chlorides, carbonates, alkalis), tends to be more conductive. I think the posts about water soaking rigged soft goods are important as the rigging failure could happen very soon after the goods got wet. How much can an operating line lock hold? At 8.3 lbs/gal it doesn't take a whole lot of water to unbalance a line set.

While this zombie topic is walking... Our PAC removed the hoses at least 3 years ago although we still have extinguishers in the cabinets - but the answers to Bill's questions are no, no, and no... While the stagehands have not received specific training or instruction from the PAC, our Local's protocol is to fight a fire only to create or preserve egress or to extinguish a burning person. Pull alarm (reports to FD), trip fire curtain, get yourself & crew the heck out, notify PAC management.

 

[Jay Ashworth]

At a house I won't identify in the Tampa Bay metro market, we have a hose cabinet with (I think) 2" line in it, I do not know if it has feed water, and we have not been trained on it -- that's pretty hard to do in any case.

At another HIWIINTBM, we do not have such a cabinet, just extinguishers -- but the booth extinguisher *is* CO2, somewhat to my surprise.

 

[RickR]

@TimMc I wouldn't want to drink from a fire hose, literally or figuratively. Eventually the water would run clean I suppose, but dirt is everywhere. Rust depends on maintenance and testing practices and age.

My take away from the update is there won't be an IBC change for a couple of years, but there is hope. Perhaps the AHJ will be open to suggestions, but without a code update pending it's not likely.

 

[TimMc]

@TimMc I wouldn't want to drink from a fire hose, literally or figuratively. Eventually the water would run clean I suppose, but dirt is everywhere. Rust depends on maintenance and testing practices and age.

My take away from the update is there won't be an IBC change for a couple of years, but there is hope. Perhaps the AHJ will be open to suggestions, but without a code update pending it's not likely.

Yeah, knowing how other things that really matter have their maintenance ignored there's no reason to think the fire hose system would see any better.

Either from weight or conductivity, water seems a bad idea in most circumstances.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

Yeah, knowing how other things that really matter have their maintenance ignored there's no reason to think the fire hose system would see any better.

Check and see if there are tags on your fire extinguishers. Should be same service.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I don't think I posted this link to an article previously: http://theatreconsultants.org/changes-to-life-safety-code-standpipes-on-stage/

You might find some other interesting articles in those ASTC newsletters by the way.

If I'm repeating myself, I'm old, so just forgive me. (I haven't started drooling yet!)

 

[TimMc]

Check and see if there are tags on your fire extinguishers. Should be same service.

The hoses have now been gone 4 or 5 years, I think. The municipal owners decided that venue staff and stage hands weren't fire fighters and I'm guessing it was a liability concern (mentioned in a post up-thread). There is still water pressure on the lines, according to the gauge on each pipe...

 

[pbansen]

Great questions, Bill, and there have been some excellent comments in reply. I'm looking at this from the perspective of 36 years in the fire service, the last 24 of which were as fire chief/fire marshal. Now retired, I have a part-time fun job as a stagehand/technician.

I agree with the comment that the space dedicated to backstage hose racks would be better utilized for additional fire extinguishers. As you suggested, the fire department isn't going to use the pin rack hose or the water supply at that location - we're going to extend a line or lines from an uninvolved compartment. Fire extinguishers can be used to good effect to extinguish a small fire, but if a fire cannot be handled with a portable extinguisher or two, it's best to evacuate everyone quickly and allow the automatic fire sprinkler system to extinguish or at least limit the spread of the fire. Pre-determine a meeting location for the crew, cast and other staff and verify that everyone is present. The first-arriving fire officer can then be notified that everyone has been evacuated and accounted for, allowing the first-due company to devote their efforts to fire suppression rather than conducting a search to eliminate the higher-priority life safety concern prior to initiating fire attack.

At one time, backstage hose racks were probably a great idea, but they're now a distinct liability, in my opinion. They create the temptation for staff members - without adequate personal protective equipment or training - to attempt to fight a fire when they'd be better off evacuating to a safe location. Fire extinguishers, once they've been expended will have either controlled the fire or not. If the fire has not been extinguished, the staff's priority should be to evacuate to safety - they've done their best.

I suspect that most AHJ's - if asked - would instruct the architect for a new facility to omit hose racks or provide a fire extinguisher cabinet in their place. Unfortunately, that question seems to be asked only some of the time. By the same token, facility managers would do well to ask the fire inspector performing their annual inspection how they can best address fire and life safety issues backstage and if they can remove the hose from their racks.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I suspect that most AHJ's - if asked - would instruct the architect for a new facility to omit hose racks or provide a fire extinguisher cabinet in their place. Unfortunately, that question seems to be asked only some of the time.

Not what I hear - and that's around 4 to 5 buildings a year. Most AHJs and Building Officials are very reticent to relax the requirements.

The fire extinguishers require training. I find most stages - community, high school, small college - do not have many employees regularily on site - maybe 1 or 2 - and many volunteers, ever changing. Very hard to rely on training.

 

[RickR]

I find it hard to believe that fire hoses don't require training. Reading OSHA doc's makes one think pencils and screwdrivers require training.


BTW: That article is probably what prodded my mind to dig deeper into fire hoses. Nice work on it and the code change.

 

[pbansen]

Not what I hear - and that's around 4 to 5 buildings a year. Most AHJs and Building Officials are very reticent to relax the requirements.

That's too bad. I suspect it's because the folks doing the inspections and plan checks are not firefighters and don't understand that a firefighter/fire officer/fire chief would laugh out loud at the thought of taking on a working fire with a piece of 1 1/2" hose that's been in a pin rack cabinet for 10 or 20 years, backed with a totally unknown and probably inadequate water supply!

The fire extinguishers require training. I find most stages - community, high school, small college - do not have many employees regularily on site - maybe 1 or 2 - and many volunteers, ever changing. Very hard to rely on training.

That's true, but at least some of those people may have had fire extinguisher training somewhere else and I'm sure you'd agree that 'live fire' fire extinguisher training can be provided with significantly greater ease and less impact than having people pull a pin rack hose and flow water. We encouraged facilities to offer live fire training to their employees using their fire extinguishers each year just prior to when said extinguishers were due to be recharged and inspected anyway (annually in California). Our fire department was only too happy to bring the needed props and provide the training and most fire departments would be willing to provide that same opportunity if asked.