Fire Safety Curtain System Hand Crank Winch Questions

I had an arson use old programs to build a fire within some architectural plywood display cases, in the unoccupied balcony foyer.
The fire opened two sprinkler heads and was quickly contained with minimal damage.

I have also had incandescent fixtures get knocked out of focus and burn holes into treated curtains.
 
Have to separate life safety - occupants - and property loss.

I can't find much at all of fires in occupied by an audience performing arts theatres, the type that might have a fire curtain, in this country. The three I've been in and several other contemporary (post WW II) I know we'll were unoccupied, or technicians. And the FC didn't close but ignore that.

I'm not sure FC were ever effective or warranted. Vents and sprinklers have been in my research. But the change from flames and arc sources, dramatic reduction in combustibles on stage, and the effectiveness of sprinklers have made them even less necessary.

And where are the bodies?

And what about the clear lack of many functioning for many decades. Not missed.

And would the ones we do in US really hold up? Looking at Frankfurt Opera house fire in 80s, seeing the metal man doors in proscenium destroyed by the negative pressure on stage, buckled inward.

As far as UK and Europe - they are not keen and perhaps a little afraid of fire sprinklers , so hard to compare.

And where are the bodies?

Irksome to me we pay so much attention to these and so little to the falls and cost of those hazards in the aisles and on stage.

I'm not sure my rambling really answered your question.

So in a nutshell, Bill, the big Johns-Manville Libby Montana guillotine is one of those things that sounded like a really good idea a century ago but, in practicality, has yet to save a life.

I agree.

The primary reason people no longer die in theater fires is that theaters are less combustible - the construction, soft goods, materials in general; sources of ignition greatly reduced by better Code application; auditoriums are designed for faster egress and are less combustible as well, plus smoking is not allowed. Mostly though it's that fire of any significance is a rare thing. Collectively we've learned a lot from each fire and hopefully we've applied it sufficiently to honor those who died enjoying or providing entertainment. That Iroquois Theater fires no longer happen is not an accident (pun intended).

While we've done better in formal performance spaces, the lessons have not always transferred - Feb 20 will be the 16th anniversary of The Station nightclub fire in West Warwick, RI. One hundred people died and another 230 or so were injured. The 42nd anniversary of the Beverly Hills Supper Club fire is May 28; 165 people died and over 200 were injured.

So I'm all for taking the fire curtain money and putting it toward better audience egress and particularly for evacuation of back stage areas. Let's keep the fires from starting and spreading with Code compliance and best practices, to give us time to get the hell out.
 
Sounds like your treated curtains did what they were supposed to do: burn in the area exposed to intense heat from your fixtures, but not continue to burn to spread the fire.
I was on a college faculty, one year old space by reputable designers and contractors, including new curtains, and in midst of dance tech rehearsal. Leg caught on a high side on top of boom. Smoke and flames. I went up Tallescope with Matt knife and dropped it. Carried outside. Burst into flames.

Many years later at code meetings, the top engineer at one of the legacy code organizations declared flame retardant treatments to be one of the greatest frauds on the American people.

Take it for what it is worth but I don't give much credit to flame retardants. YMMV.
 
I was on a college faculty, one year old space by reputable designers and contractors, including new curtains, and in midst of dance tech rehearsal. Leg caught on a high side on top of boom. Smoke and flames. I went up Tallescope with Matt knife and dropped it. Carried outside. Burst into flames.

Many years later at code meetings, the top engineer at one of the legacy code organizations declared flame retardant treatments to be one of the greatest frauds on the American people.

Take it for what it is worth but I don't give much credit to flame retardants. YMMV.

Had an event where the Secret Service decided a TV light in the wing caused glare that prevented the agent on the other side of the stage from having a clear view. The first agent simply swung the light to face directly into the leg. I reached up to turn off the light and the agent had "a very good grip" on my arm. "We don't flip switches while XXXXXX is on stage." The leg smoldered for several minutes until another SS agent decided it was okay to unplug the power to the light. The leg self-extinguished, as it was supposed to. After we regained control of the stage we brought in the legs and had our local fire marshal declared it to be extinguished.

The venue found out that you can't bill the Secret Service for this type of damage.
 
Many years later at code meetings, the top engineer at one of the legacy code organizations declared flame retardant treatments to be one of the greatest frauds on the American people.

Take it for what it is worth but I don't give much credit to flame retardants. YMMV.

Makes sense. Same sort of argument on flame retardants in consumer furniture - with studies now showing that they also introduce more harmful chemicals in the air for fire fighters to breathe (and possibly home owners as well).
 
Yes, just what i posted. Straight lift under 850 sq ft. Manual counterweight is acceptable and covered.

I know you are not referring to ANSI here because ANSI 1.22 says less than 925 square feet can be un-powered, but I'm still really confused by statements in ANSI 1.22 that seem contradictory or paradoxical as they relate to hand-cranked winches. The idea that non-emergency operation "shall not require more than 3 minutes" doesn't jive with a hand-cranked system... so are they technically no longer allowed or at least no longer recommended? Does NFPA make any distinctions about how a manual counterweight system is to be reset? Hand-line vs hand-crank, etc?

Another point on deleting the requirement. Besides fire curtains and deluge systems, you can use doors. I've done one or two with rolling metal fire doors. Comparable cost, always motorized. There are other listed devices. Horizontal coiling doors with motors and batteries. (Wan door is one). You can also use mechanical smoke protection, big exhaust fans in brief. So lots of choices. And the code permits you to design other ways to provide a 20 minute barrier between stage and auditorium. I've thought about a plywood wall coated with intumescent paint.

Therefore the code change would be to remove the requirement for proscenium opening protection, not the removal of the fire curtain option for thus requirement. Make sense?

This mostly makes sense. It seems there needs to be some means of protecting an audience from a fire or smoke situation on stage long enough for emergency egress to occur. Or are you suggesting even that might not be necessary in modern theaters due to other factors that make fires less likely to occur and spread in the first place? Such protection can be achieved various ways as you have described, one of which is a fire safety curtain or door.

Fire safety curtains or doors can provide another life safety protection as a "railing" to prevent falls off the front of the stage... but the value of this depends very much I think on a particular theater's architecture. If there's a large apron downstage of the fire safety curtain then there is still potentially a fall hazard present. Or if the elevation change from the stage to the audience is exceptionally shallow for some reason such a railing may not be required in the first place. And of course, an actual railing system on the front of the stage could serve the same function. I'm actually curious what codes and standards have to say about the fall hazard at the front of a stage in particular as this is somewhat of a separate issue from fire protection. When is the elevation between stage edge and front row high enough to require a safety railing?

As has been stated, fire safety curtains or doors provide other advantages that are quite secondary to life safety, such as protection of property, security, possibly more efficient heating and cooling during off-periods, etc. Given those advantages, and the added benefit of helping ensure the curtain is always working properly, I am certainly for lowering the curtain on a routine basis provided you have the means of doing so practically. If you have one, you might as well use it for all of its advantages.

@BillConnerFASTC
It seems at least for the moment that there is no visible champion pushing for elimination or reduction of proscenium opening requirements. I know in previous revision cycles moving the needle has required firms like Arup to contribute a massive amount of effort for fire/smoke propagation studies. Without anyone beating the drum on this and putting a study together to examine it in depth, I'm not sure we'll see any significant changes in the near future.

Sounds like this could be an interesting and valuable project for a Graduate or Doctoral thesis in fluid dynamics at a research school.

I have also had incandescent fixtures get knocked out of focus and burn holes into treated curtains.

I was on a college faculty, one year old space by reputable designers and contractors, including new curtains, and in midst of dance tech rehearsal. Leg caught on a high side on top of boom. Smoke and flames. I went up Tallescope with Matt knife and dropped it. Carried outside. Burst into flames.

Many years later at code meetings, the top engineer at one of the legacy code organizations declared flame retardant treatments to be one of the greatest frauds on the American people.

Take it for what it is worth but I don't give much credit to flame retardants. YMMV.

That sounds rather terrifying. Thank you for enlightening me on the term "Tallescope," I've seen those things before but never knew what they were called. There are some rather interesting videos on YouTube illustrating different techniques for rescuing a worker from a Tallescope.

I have also had Altman 360Q's burn holes into legs. I'm guessing the flame retardant treatment on the curtains is what kept them from developing into actual flames... they just smoldered a little. I don't know how valuable they are in residential applications, but in theater draperies placed in close proximity to exceptionally hot lighting fixtures flame retardants seem like a good idea.

Or you could have your hand crank system upgraded to a braille winch system and get a whole new fire curtain and smoke pocket while you're at it.

I think a conversation with our facilities planning and operations people is definitely in order. I believe our proscenium opening is right between that 850 and 925 square feet specified by NFPA and ANSI so a conversion to motorized would definitely be a good idea. Does the phrase "braille winch system" not refer to a manual hand crank system? Everywhere I see the phrase "braille winch" it's in relation to a hand-crank winch. A braille-style curtain would not be used in our space, our existing is a straight lift. Even though it is presently grandfathered in, a replacement of the asbestos curtain would be preferred if we were going to be lowering the curtain on a near daily basis.
 
Smatticus- some comments.
NFPA 80 is law in many jurisdictions. ANSI 1.22 is not, to the best of my knowledge, law anyplace. If I looked through my notes I might find why these differ. I'll wager I was a part of the discussion in committee but blanking on it now.

Generally hand crank are for braille and iirc only straight lift under the size noted are allowed non-motorized, so not usually cranked. The concern is of course if it takes too long, the regular closing will be deterred.

Keep in mind egress requirements should provide a 200 second egress (a number pulled from a newspaper article on a theatre fire in Scottland iirc where everyone got out safely) so the question will the fire grow so fast as to endanger people in 200 seconds. Or 10 minutes if you want a 3:1 safety factor. And the requirement use to be 5 minutes for an asbestos curtain. Now 20 - how convenient for manufacturers who just happen to test for that. If 5 minutes never cost a life in 80 or so years, why raise it as hazard decreases.

The only place protection of occupants from the dall hazard is in law is the Life Safety Code, which simply requires a "written plan" on how people will be protected from the hazard. OSHA does not have the blanket exception building and fire codes do, so employees still have to be protected. And yes, the fire curtain is not ideal, but not bad for folks walking in the dark.

I loved the tallescope. Steady, light enough to lift onto platforms. Pulled off the market in US because too easy to misuse. So genies with interlocked outriggers.

I think a braille winch can be hand crank or motorized, its just a winch for brail curtains which don't work with counterweight.

Thoughtful comments. Thanks.
 
Thank you for enlightening me on the term "Tallescope," I've seen those things before but never knew what they were called.
Pretty sure the name comes from the UK, and interestingly, they were never called that in the US until after Upright Scaffold stopped making them. Most Americans who have used the device, and who aren't pedantists like @BillConnerFASTC would call it a "cherry picker."
 

So, the name doesn't just come from the UK after Upright stopped making them... :doh:I've never worked at a venue that has one so haven't really heard them being called "cherry-pickers" either.

Smatticus- some comments.
NFPA 80 is law in many jurisdictions. ANSI 1.22 is not, to the best of my knowledge, law anyplace. If I looked through my notes I might find why these differ. I'll wager I was a part of the discussion in committee but blanking on it now.

I'll find out if this is the case in our jurisdiction, hopefully a good starting point for a conversation with our facilities health and safety about upgrading our fire curtain winch.
 

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