Fixing the sound of my kid's Cafe-Gym-Atorium
- Thread startergafftaper
- Start date
Make sure that any cloth, drape, foam, or other material used to treat the acoustics has fire ratings. Fire Marshals get very curious about acoustic materials of any type, thinking they might contain the dreaded, flammable foam. If you don't you might wind up having to remove your hard work later.
The best way to handle it is to buy materials from a dealer that will provide fire testing documentation. Put a copy behind plastic on the wall in a janitor's closet, mechanical room, or someplace where the building staff can point to it during inspection.
The best way to handle it is to buy materials from a dealer that will provide fire testing documentation. Put a copy behind plastic on the wall in a janitor's closet, mechanical room, or someplace where the building staff can point to it during inspection.
Thanks, that's a great idea!
I had a similar type venue and Brad's comments make a lot of sense. I did find that by making deflection panels for the ceiling (I used lanai on 1X6 boards cut to a curve) backed with Dense Fiber Glass hung so reduce the ceiling height and deflect, and Making a series of 4x8 panels that were hinged in the middle filled with 4 inches of Fiberglass and then positioned around the rooms ln a protruding triangle shape so that the not only were absorbing but also reduced the flat surfaces. In addition Banners made of commando cloth worked. Being able to hang and move the surfaces and treatments did work. Granted as Brad said the results are un predictable since these are DYI but for not a lot of money you can make a considerable improvement. IN addition, some of the options are to make sure the speakers are high up tilted down to the audience to reduce some of the reflection, and also side fill speakers with proper delay and again high up tilted down can also help
Sharyn
Sharyn
Not exactly. The people in the audience should still be getting the same amount of direct sound they were getting before, just less reflected sound, which arrives later than the direct sound and therefore causes problems with intelligibility.
DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
But it is a single speaker covering the gym... I could foresee increasing intelligibility in areas that are directly in the path of the speakers cone and the other area's become worse. Its a single speaker and not a distributed system in what sounds to be a fairly large room.
It may take some experimenting to find the best place to hang the curtains to still allow some reflection, but on the same note its about controlling the reflections not eliminating them.
It may take some experimenting to find the best place to hang the curtains to still allow some reflection, but on the same note its about controlling the reflections not eliminating them.
Well this thread is officially dead. I did some more research today and discovered that almost all the sound equipment belongs to the Music teacher who is retiring next week and taking it all with him. The school owns a pair of Peavy SP 5G speakers (with tripods) and has a pair of JBL SR 4725A speakers on "long term loan". So acoustic treatment is no longer in the budget.
From my brief initial research it looks like both are pretty decent speakers (with the JBL's being better but heavier and power hungry). Any opinions on these speakers would be appreciated.
I need to discuss the long term plans for system use with some people at the school before we start talking about amps and mixers.
From my brief initial research it looks like both are pretty decent speakers (with the JBL's being better but heavier and power hungry). Any opinions on these speakers would be appreciated.
I need to discuss the long term plans for system use with some people at the school before we start talking about amps and mixers.
How do you see it becoming worse in other areas?
This actually seems to reflect a trick sometimes used with predictive modeling like EASE in order to try to make a particular product look like a good solution. Stick a speaker in the room (perhaps with accurate modeling of the room and finishes, perhaps not), look at the total energy (with interference turned off) and show how nice the level and coverage looks. But what about the resulting Direct/Reverberant energy ratio, Intelligibility (STI or %ALCONS), interference, ITDG (Initial Time Delay Gap), Impulse Response, etc. that also impact the perceived quality of the sound in many applications? That is where the room shape and finishes can have the most impact and while adding absorptive surfaces may reduce the overall level slightly at some points, it tends can improve many of the other aspects for many applications.
So moving from a discussion of acoustics to buying a small sound system. Question one for the school is do they want to just replace the current simple all in one system, in which case I can build a nice system for $1500 or do they want to upgrade to a larger more pro setup... possibly one that can be used with a future built in system or portable.
I'm envisioning something like a 16 channel mixer, a big amp, EQ, CD player, build a nice rolling rack to keep it all in. You can roll it wherever you want and use with the existing speakers. Once a year there is a big fall festival on the school grounds, with a concert stage. Last year we paid a lot of money to rent a sound system. With this upgrade all I need to do is rent a couple of extra stage monitors and I'm good to go. If we can set aside a couple more grand in the future we can get a DSP and install some wall mount speakers in the gym to be the other half of the system.
So:
I'm thinking something like:
Mackie VLZ3 16x4 mixer $900
Crown XTi 4002 $1000
ART 31 Band EQ $330
Furman power conditioner M-8Lx $100
Numark MP103USB MP3/USB/CD player $200
2 SM58's, stands, cables, couple of cheap direct boxes, rack rail, wood for case... another $500ish
Total package around $3000
So suggestions to cutting costs? Obvious I would be consulting my favorite dealers for bid, I just jumped on Sweetwater to get some pricing to start with. I want to build something on a budget but decent quality. It will mostly be operated by students that I train or myself. Does that amp make sense? is it overkill? Do you have any favorite alternatives I should consider to these products? I'm just sort of picking stuff out of the air at this point without much research going into it, but this is the general idea of what I'm looking for. They told me they have $1500 to spend. So I'm going to be pushing my luck getting up to $3,000.
Finally how do you feel about buying a good amp and using the existing speakers vs. buying a set of powered new speakers and dumping the old ones?
I'm envisioning something like a 16 channel mixer, a big amp, EQ, CD player, build a nice rolling rack to keep it all in. You can roll it wherever you want and use with the existing speakers. Once a year there is a big fall festival on the school grounds, with a concert stage. Last year we paid a lot of money to rent a sound system. With this upgrade all I need to do is rent a couple of extra stage monitors and I'm good to go. If we can set aside a couple more grand in the future we can get a DSP and install some wall mount speakers in the gym to be the other half of the system.
So:
I'm thinking something like:
Mackie VLZ3 16x4 mixer $900
Crown XTi 4002 $1000
ART 31 Band EQ $330
Furman power conditioner M-8Lx $100
Numark MP103USB MP3/USB/CD player $200
2 SM58's, stands, cables, couple of cheap direct boxes, rack rail, wood for case... another $500ish
Total package around $3000
So suggestions to cutting costs? Obvious I would be consulting my favorite dealers for bid, I just jumped on Sweetwater to get some pricing to start with. I want to build something on a budget but decent quality. It will mostly be operated by students that I train or myself. Does that amp make sense? is it overkill? Do you have any favorite alternatives I should consider to these products? I'm just sort of picking stuff out of the air at this point without much research going into it, but this is the general idea of what I'm looking for. They told me they have $1500 to spend. So I'm going to be pushing my luck getting up to $3,000.
Finally how do you feel about buying a good amp and using the existing speakers vs. buying a set of powered new speakers and dumping the old ones?
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DuckJordan
Touring IATSE Member
This is one of the situations where I would say get an amp, so upgrading to better speakers is cheaper in the future. Unless your going to be keeping the speakers for at least 6-8 years (average) and will need no upgrade or updating then you could go with active speakers.
Since everything in this system is going to be run by trained people why not keep the things separate (also makes adjusting Amp levels easier to do since you don't have the amps in the speakers in possibly hard to get to areas.
Do a basic cost layout of building your own vs. buying a custom built road case. With as much as will be in it. it may be cheaper and possibly better built by someone who does custom cases for their business.
Just my 2 cents, I'm doing a sound gig early july that consists of active speakers in a situation where i won't be able to leave the console during the show, Makes figuring out problems difficult.
Don't forget about Audiopile for your cables, rack and DI's.
Audiopile Pro Audio* Welcome to Audiopile
Audiopile Pro Audio* Welcome to Audiopile
MarshallPope
Well-Known Member
Depending on just how much of an issue cost is, and how many inputs you need, I have been fairly happy with the Yamaha mg166 series boards. They only have 8 mono and 4 stereo inputs, making them great for playback, but that could be an issue if you foresee needing more. My major complaint with the boards are their clunky mute buttons. One of these could save you $500-600, though.
All the mics, stands, cables, case/rack, etc. for a fully functional system with a 16 channel mixer for $500 seems a little low but then this goes back to the other two comments as it is not real clear what the envisioned use and related needs are for the sound system. For example..
Is this an elementary school, middle school or high school?
What type of events are envisioned and are there known audio needs associated with those?
Was the existing system portable because that is what was desired or because it belonged to an instructor rather than to the school? Would it be desirable to have some components or capabilities of the system available at all times without requiring any significant setup or a trained operator?
Is there a permanent stage or a defined stage location?
Is the 'long term loan' arrangement for the JBL SR4725A speakers such that you can count on them always being available?
Is any cost above the $1,500 budget actually viable? Is $3,000 practical and if so, then might $4,000 or $5,000 or more also be possible?
I'm concerned of this turning into a situation where you are looking at it from the perspective of a comprehensive, long term solution while the administration may be thinking the $1,500 and look at any subsequent investment from the perspective that 'they just invested $1,5000 and now you want more?' Of trying to address the needs and results versus spending a certain dollar amount that does not reflect any specific needs or solutions. That's why I think that even with the limited budget and system involved here it is important to verify and document the goals before addressing any particular solutions.
This is a small K-8 Catholic school. The primary use of this system is school assemblies with just one microphone. These may take place in several different locations so portability is key. Monday, for example, there was a big barbecue out on the playground with parents and kids. The sound system was used to make announcements and play music.
The school owns the speakers. The music teacher owns the mixer/amp. The church, located across the street, owns the SM58's and cable. The music teacher has spent the last 20 years carrying mics back and forth for every event sometimes resulting in mics in the wrong location at a critical time. There is a permanent defined stage in the Cafe-Gym-Atorium but it's very poor (new curtains is an entirely different budget problem). This is where the ancient dead installed system hangs.
I spoke with the owners of the JBL's yesterday. Their oldest daughter is finishing pre-school with my son. They plan to have both of their kids attend the school all the way through and short of the husband "getting the band back together" (which seems very unlikely) they will stay at the school.
The existing system was small and portable both for simplicity of operation, budget, and ease of use. The school has $1500 set aside, but I think $3,000 or a little more is in reach simply because they spend so much renting for those few events that require more than an all in one.
Clearly the balance of simple to use all in one vs. the capacity of a real mixing console to reinforce a small stage concert is the critical point in all this. There is traction to buy a better system than an all in one because of the amount that is thrown away every year renting a better system for large events. Who will operate it? I know I was learning to run a 16 channel mixer in 5th grade. I can see myself training a team of tech kids to handle simple events and be my crew for more complex ones.
As for the $500 for mics, I'm thinking $500 to just get us started with two mics and the cables needed to make that two mic system go. (We can still borrow extra from the church). I'm going to push them to try to squeeze another $1500 out of next year's budget to expand the mic collection (especially into getting some choral mics).
$4000-$5000 might be possible at this point. I'm planning to put together a multi-level budget for them. $3000 get's you this, if you want choral mics it will cost you $X more, if you want to add a permanent setup in the gym it'll cost you $Y on top of that. My feeling is if done right, my "portable" kit above could in the future have a DSP added and roll into the gym and plug into the hung speakers and become the heart of an installed system. There will never be any sort of permanent mixing location in the gym anyway as it would have to be installed on the basketball court.
The school owns the speakers. The music teacher owns the mixer/amp. The church, located across the street, owns the SM58's and cable. The music teacher has spent the last 20 years carrying mics back and forth for every event sometimes resulting in mics in the wrong location at a critical time. There is a permanent defined stage in the Cafe-Gym-Atorium but it's very poor (new curtains is an entirely different budget problem). This is where the ancient dead installed system hangs.
I spoke with the owners of the JBL's yesterday. Their oldest daughter is finishing pre-school with my son. They plan to have both of their kids attend the school all the way through and short of the husband "getting the band back together" (which seems very unlikely) they will stay at the school.
The existing system was small and portable both for simplicity of operation, budget, and ease of use. The school has $1500 set aside, but I think $3,000 or a little more is in reach simply because they spend so much renting for those few events that require more than an all in one.
Clearly the balance of simple to use all in one vs. the capacity of a real mixing console to reinforce a small stage concert is the critical point in all this. There is traction to buy a better system than an all in one because of the amount that is thrown away every year renting a better system for large events. Who will operate it? I know I was learning to run a 16 channel mixer in 5th grade. I can see myself training a team of tech kids to handle simple events and be my crew for more complex ones.
As for the $500 for mics, I'm thinking $500 to just get us started with two mics and the cables needed to make that two mic system go. (We can still borrow extra from the church). I'm going to push them to try to squeeze another $1500 out of next year's budget to expand the mic collection (especially into getting some choral mics).
$4000-$5000 might be possible at this point. I'm planning to put together a multi-level budget for them. $3000 get's you this, if you want choral mics it will cost you $X more, if you want to add a permanent setup in the gym it'll cost you $Y on top of that. My feeling is if done right, my "portable" kit above could in the future have a DSP added and roll into the gym and plug into the hung speakers and become the heart of an installed system. There will never be any sort of permanent mixing location in the gym anyway as it would have to be installed on the basketball court.
So let's talk hardware:
I think these amps are in my price range and appear to be strong enough to handle those JBL SR4725A which are rated at 600W RMS. What do you think? I'm thinking that in terms of headroom, the XLS 5000D is probably the best choice. In terms of quality it's probably the QSC QLX, but it costs a lot more and has less headroom. On the other hand I can save a good deal of money with the Peavy or Yamaha options. But can they handle the JBL's? Thoughts on the best match for those speakers on a budget? Also if you think you have a better choice please share:
Crown XLS 5000D 1100W @8 ohms $1000
Crown XTi 4002 650 W @ 8 ohms $1000
QSC QLX 3102 600W @ 8 ohms $1130
QSC PLX 1804 550@ @ 8 ohms $800
Peavy PV 3800 775W @ 8 ohms $830
Yamaha P 7000S 700W @ 8 ohms $750
As for mixers I'm liking these little rack mount options for a non-powered model. What do you think?
Yamaha MG206C $640 (+$40 for USB model but I don't see a need for it in our application should I get it?)
Mackie 1542 VLZ3 $650
In that same price range but not rack mountable but tempting.
Allen and Heath ZED 24 $700
If I have to go with a powered amp I think the best choices are:
Peavey XR 1220 $1100 20 channels a big plus, 600W x 2 amp 4 ohms I think, built in RTA and feedback kill again is it any good?
Mackie PPM1012 $1100 12 channels, 800W x 2 amp (not sure about this it says 800x2 but also says 800 mains & 800 monitors suggesting it's more like 400x4),
Yamaha EMX5014C $730 14 channels, 500W x 2 amp 4 ohms
Yamaha EMX5016CF $1000 500W x 2 amp 4 ohms, 16 channels, built in feedback suppression (will it be useful?).
Again what are your thoughts?
I think these amps are in my price range and appear to be strong enough to handle those JBL SR4725A which are rated at 600W RMS. What do you think? I'm thinking that in terms of headroom, the XLS 5000D is probably the best choice. In terms of quality it's probably the QSC QLX, but it costs a lot more and has less headroom. On the other hand I can save a good deal of money with the Peavy or Yamaha options. But can they handle the JBL's? Thoughts on the best match for those speakers on a budget? Also if you think you have a better choice please share:
Crown XLS 5000D 1100W @8 ohms $1000
Crown XTi 4002 650 W @ 8 ohms $1000
QSC QLX 3102 600W @ 8 ohms $1130
QSC PLX 1804 550@ @ 8 ohms $800
Peavy PV 3800 775W @ 8 ohms $830
Yamaha P 7000S 700W @ 8 ohms $750
As for mixers I'm liking these little rack mount options for a non-powered model. What do you think?
Yamaha MG206C $640 (+$40 for USB model but I don't see a need for it in our application should I get it?)
Mackie 1542 VLZ3 $650
In that same price range but not rack mountable but tempting.
Allen and Heath ZED 24 $700
If I have to go with a powered amp I think the best choices are:
Peavey XR 1220 $1100 20 channels a big plus, 600W x 2 amp 4 ohms I think, built in RTA and feedback kill again is it any good?
Mackie PPM1012 $1100 12 channels, 800W x 2 amp (not sure about this it says 800x2 but also says 800 mains & 800 monitors suggesting it's more like 400x4),
Yamaha EMX5014C $730 14 channels, 500W x 2 amp 4 ohms
Yamaha EMX5016CF $1000 500W x 2 amp 4 ohms, 16 channels, built in feedback suppression (will it be useful?).
Again what are your thoughts?
I personally love QSC's GX line. The GX7 is enough for those speakers. I've seen some good deals on them. And, for portability, the GX7 weighs 15.5 pounds. And, I have picked one up...its amazing. They have XLR, 1/4", and RCA inputs. And 1/4", SpeakOn, banana plugs, and binding posts for outputs. And, if you were to add subs, or use it with some, it has a built in crossover.
QSC GX7 725W at 8 ohms for $600
Thanks Chase I missed that in my researching prices vs power because it was so cheap I wasn't even looking down below $700. Looks like an excellent option.
Anybody see a reason to not go with the GX7? With the JBL's that's 125 watts of headroom... which isn't great but something. Anybody know that JBL SR4725A well enough to know how accurate that 600W RMS is?
Thanks Chase I missed that in my researching prices vs power because it was so cheap I wasn't even looking down below $700. Looks like an excellent option.
Anybody see a reason to not go with the GX7? With the JBL's that's 125 watts of headroom... which isn't great but something. Anybody know that JBL SR4725A well enough to know how accurate that 600W RMS is?
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First, a few nit-picky details. The GX amps, and many other amps, are rated at 1kHz, so unless you only run a 1kHz tone through them then the power in actual use will likely be less, say maybe closer to 625-650W than 725W. The SR4725A is rated 600W continuous, not RMS (there is no such thing as RMS Watts). The relationship of the amp power rating and speaker power does not define headroom, it defines the maximum crest factor the system can accommodate when providing the maximum average level the speaker can handle.
The 600W continuous rating of the SR4725A is probably just as accurate as for any speaker but it is based on a specific signal and certain test conditions that although intended to represent 'typical' use, may not represent all potential use that well. However, since the JBL's are potentially a temporary solution I would not worry too much about how the amp relates to them other than considering a) will it provide the output needed and b) with no system processing and K-8 student operators, will it help avoid potentially damaging a speaker that they don't own, probably isn't covered by their insurance and that they likely couldn't afford to replace? On either of those points you might want to look at providing a bit more power so that you can generate greater output and do so without pushing the amp too hard. Something like a 900-1,200W per channel rated amp might be preferred from that perspective but that almost certainly also becomes a cost factor. And in terms of the difference to which any additional cost may correpsond,the difference between say 650W and 1,000W is only 2.2dB, so potentially noticeable but not a real significant difference.
I would tend to go with a separate mixer and amp for three reasons. First, it allows more flexibility in selecting something that meets your needs for both the mixer and the amplifier. Second, if something fails you're more likely to be able to borrow or rent a mixer or amplifier that will work for you than a mixer/amp. Finally, similar to the second point, this provides much greater flexibility in terms of being used with different mixers, speakers, etc. if required for special events.
The one aspect I am still not sure about is the balance of the typical use and the special event use. I understand wanting to avoid having to rent equipment for some typical special events, but the trade-off seems to be additional complexity and wear and tear on the equipment for the more prevalent usage. I'd want to make sure that the people paying for the equipment and relying on it working clearly understand that there will be some setup and the need for an operator associated with any use of the system.
FWIW, I'd be careful with the assumption that the band getting back together won't likely happen as there are no real limits on when something like that can happen. Just last year I started playing on a semi-regular basis with a group that includes several of us who had not played for a number of years. Just about everyone who has been part of that is 50 or over and many have families, so you never know when the "we're getting the band back together" call may come.
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