Fixing the sound of my kid's Cafe-Gym-Atorium

[gafftaper]

First off thanks for the lesson Brad. I consider myself a skilled board op, but nothing more in the sound world so your advice is greatly appreciated. You'll notice I don't post all that often in the sound forum, I mostly read and learn.

So it sounds like something in the range of that Crown XLS 5000D (1100W @8 ohms) is probably a much better choice in order to avoid speaker damage. It's $400 more than the GX7, but that's not a deal breaker. When I initially saw the size of those speakers I was thinking I should shoot for something nearly double their rating. It's certainly good insurance against having to replace those speakers and being able to put out some big bass.

As for the usage issue, I'm right there with you. I'm going to put together several package options and present them to the Principal and several other key people next week. The most important thing in that meeting is for me to get across that this isn't really a choice about saving money long term in rentals, it's really a question of if they want to deal with staffing events with someone who knows how to operate the equipment or not. At this point I'm planning on being around that school 9 more years so I can teach kids and staff how to use it and run the system at concert events, but I won't always be there. What if things go south and I decide to leave next year?

So back to gear questions:
1) Sound boards in the 16-20 channel $700 neighborhood: Mackie vs. Yamaha vs. Allen and Heath? I'm thinking that a rack mount mixer in something like a "Gig Rig" rack would be a good choice for ease of setup, storage, and portability if we go that route. Is A&H worth $300 more?

2) I'm tempted by the new baby Presonus 16.0.2 digital as it doesn't cost that much more, but I'm afraid it's too complex. If I went that route could I pre-program a bunch of settings that would actually make it easier to use? Or am I just fooling myself thinking like that?

3) Are there any opinions on Mackie vs. Peavey vs. Yamaha in powered mixers?

 

[rwhealey]

First off thanks for the lesson Brad. I consider myself a skilled board op, but nothing more in the sound world so your advice is greatly appreciated. You'll notice I don't post all that often in the sound forum, I mostly read and learn.

So it sounds like something in the range of that Crown XLS 5000D (1100W @8 ohms) is probably a much better choice in order to avoid speaker damage. It's $400 more than the GX7, but that's not a deal breaker. When I initially saw the size of those speakers I was thinking I should shoot for something nearly double their rating. It's certainly good insurance against having to replace those speakers and being able to put out some big bass.

As for the usage issue, I'm right there with you. I'm going to put together several package options and present them to the Principal and several other key people next week. The most important thing in that meeting is for me to get across that this isn't really a choice about saving money long term in rentals, it's really a question of if they want to deal with staffing events with someone who knows how to operate the equipment or not. At this point I'm planning on being around that school 9 more years so I can teach kids and staff how to use it and run the system at concert events, but I won't always be there. What if things go south and I decide to leave next year?

So back to gear questions:
1) Sound boards in the 16-20 channel $700 neighborhood: Mackie vs. Yamaha vs. Allen and Heath? I'm thinking that a rack mount mixer in something like a "Gig Rig" rack would be a good choice for ease of setup, storage, and portability if we go that route. Is A&H worth $300 more?

2) I'm tempted by the new baby Presonus 16.0.2 digital as it doesn't cost that much more, but I'm afraid it's too complex. If I went that route could I pre-program a bunch of settings that would actually make it easier to use? Or am I just fooling myself thinking like that?

3) Are there any opinions on Mackie vs. Peavey vs. Yamaha in powered mixers?

Do you really need that many channels? If you don't, consider an Ashly MX508 - it's less intimidating.

 

[gafftaper]

I think the point is we either go big and get something that I can run a full band performance with or we just buy another all in one powered mixer and forget it.

 

[gafftaper]

What do you think about putting a dbx Driverack PA+ instead of the Graphic EQ? It's quite a bit expensive, but I like the idea of being able to tune the room, program the Driverack and then leave it in charge of keeping everything in control while a kid operates the system.

 

[rwhealey]

What do you think about putting a dbx Driverack PA+ instead of the Graphic EQ? It's quite a bit expensive, but I like the idea of being able to tune the room, program the Driverack and then leave it in charge of keeping everything in control while a kid operates the system.

The Driverack PA+ only has 10ms of delay per output - not enough to do system alignment. It would suck to have to replace the processor when the speakers are redone if a semi distributed or distributed system is used.

Anybody know how much the Biamp Nexia units are? That might be a good choice, if they're cost effective.

 

[DuckJordan]

The Driverack PA+ only has 10ms of delay per output - not enough to do system alignment. It would suck to have to replace the processor when the speakers are redone if a semi distributed or distributed system is used.

Anybody know how much the Biamp Nexia units are? That might be a good choice, if they're cost effective.

I actually saw a demo of these units. Way overkill for this situation. Its also more designed for Conference centers and things such as a 70v system. There are better options out there than the Biamp systems.

 

[chausman]

The Driverack PA+ only has 10ms of delay per output - not enough to do system alignment. It would suck to have to replace the processor when the speakers are redone if a semi distributed or distributed system is used.

Yes it's only up to 10ms of delay, but are you (Gafftaper) planning on using it as a delay, or for acting as an EQ/crossover/feedback destroyer(we've all read about those though)/compressor that you could save different locations on where the system might be used? The DriveRack can also be use to save different locations so you don't have to go and reprogram it every time you use it. That seems like enough of a reason to get it for a schools portable system.

And, if you were planning on having a system where older students would use it, the Feedback destroyer (while people on CB may not like them) may be useful for newer ops, and a majority of the audience won't notice. And, it has compressors so you have less gear to haul around, and extra protection for newer ops as well.

IMO

 

[gafftaper]

Chase nailed it. I don't care at about the delay or crossover. I was looking at it as a good quality 28 band EQ/RTA/Auto EQ/Feedback Destroy/Compressor/Limiter. The way I read the dbx propaganda, the driverack PA+ was designed for things like small bands moving from club to club (that may not have a very good engineer with them). The band can setup the system, let it tune the room, and walk away and play their music while the driverack pa+ monitors everything.

Now I know that this thing is not even close to having a pro sitting at the console. And yes I know that feedback killers do not sound great and make engineers cringe. However, please go with me for a second and consider the pros and cons of using a feedback killer vs. a 5th grader with no trained supervision on site running school assemblies. By the way for you young folks, I was running a 16 channel mixer when I was in 5th grade so don't think I'm committing age discrimination here. The point is I had a supervisor who was there to help me if I got over my head. These kids often wont, but the driverack pa+ could be that supervisor. I'm thinking I could take the system around to the various locations in the school, program the driverack and then just train the kids to select the correct room on the menu and everything is set. Let it run all it's real time digital magic and I'm making it easier for them to not make mistakes.

I was originally looking at that ART 31 band EQ with the feedback analysis system that tells you which bands to adjust to remove feedback... again thinking this would help a young kid be a better technician. But that EQ is $300. For $200 more I can upgrade to the driverack pa+ and all that stuff is automated and the kid/or teacher doesn't have to touch it.

Thoughts? Do you like the idea of that ART 31 band EQ instead of the driverack?

 

[chausman]

Chase nailed it.

By the way for you young folks, I was running a 16 channel mixer when I was in 5th grade so don't think I'm committing age discrimination here.

Thoughts? Do you like the idea of that ART 31 band EQ instead of the driverack?

First off, thanks.

I first learned sound on a yammy 01v in third grade...wasn't the best at it either! (but I knew what I was doing)

I really like the idea of being able to save multiple venues and recall them later. I would love to get one for myself. For systems where relatively untrained ops, I am a big fan of digitized and simplified systems. (as in mostly preprogrammed)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[museav]

Chase nailed it. I don't care at about the delay or crossover. I was looking at it as a good quality 28 band EQ/RTA/Auto EQ/Feedback Destroy/Compressor/Limiter. The way I read the dbx propaganda, the driverack PA+ was designed for things like small bands moving from club to club (that may not have a very good engineer with them). The band can setup the system, let it tune the room, and walk away and play their music while the driverack pa+ monitors everything.

Expanding the concept of automated operation, then why not buy an automixer and forego an operator? For a group on a budget the dbx PA+ can do okay for system tuning but relying on the PA+ alone, and especially on it doing things automatically, seems to have several potential considerations. For one, the general consensus seems to be to either avoid the AutoEQ function altogether or to use it just to get some starting point, but to not rely on it to give a desired result. Similar with the auto feedback destroyer, it may not be bad for a single mic use but since it's on the overall mix rather than an input or group, what might it do when you have multiple mics and music and EFX all mixed together? The DRPA+ is also not that user friendly for adjustments during use, it is much more a 'set and forget' device than one you'd want to have to be adjusting during a performance or event. An approach using both the ART and the PA+ with the PA+ setup for the system processing (EQ of the speakers, crossover if needed at any point, comp/limiter, etc.) that would not change between events and then using the ART for event specific tuning could be more effective.

This also seems to go back to the point of simple use. If the standard process for the system setup included configuring the processor you then require greater knowledge and time for every setup. My concern is not whether you could find some students who could handle it but that you would be creating a situation where you depend on having such a student, and their time, for every single use. Pull everything out, setup the speakers, run cables, adjust the PA+, set levels, etc. just for someone to make a few announcements, then take it all down and start over again for the next event. I know the budget probably prohibits this being done all at once but a concept where there is a permanent system with basic automixing for a few permanent mic inputs into which the mixer could then connect when required is often a better long term approach in similar situations. Something where the basic system could be setup and left and even a administrator could turn it on, plug in a mic and use it, but with the ability to also easily accommodate a mixer with it's own EQ, etc. for other events.

 

[gafftaper]

You are so right about doing the complete system with an auto mixer Brad. The problem is we have three primary needs: A simple setup of one microphone in the gym, a three day festival once a year with a concert stage and a different band every hour, and a musical in the spring off campus. The truth is each event has completely different needs and to make every event happy is going to cost $15,000... not $1,500

Chase you were a lucky little kid getting to use an O1V in 3rd grade.

 

[avkid]

Chase you were a lucky little kid getting to use an O1V in 3rd grade.

That sounds more like a tortured childhood to me.

 

[dvsDave]

As far as speakers go, can I put forth a recommendation for the QSC K8 or K10 speakers? These speakers put out a sound that just belies their size. They have nice built-in mount points for install work and the clarity from the tremulous highs of a sweeping violin (mic'ed a world-class violist two weeks ago at church, he plays in the national orchestra, and is just jaw-droppingly good) to the deep, rich sounds of a 6 string bass.

Best of all, the K8's are only about $600 a pop.

 

[chausman]

That sounds more like a tortured childhood to me.

Not to me!!!

As far as speakers go, can I put forth a recommendation for the QSC K8 or K10 speakers? These speakers put out a sound that just belies their size. They have nice built-in mount points for install work and the clarity from the tremulous highs of a sweeping violin (mic'ed a world-class violist two weeks ago at church, he plays in the national orchestra, and is just jaw-droppingly good) to the deep, rich sounds of a 6 string bass.

Best of all, the K8's are only about $600 a pop.

I really like the K series. I though they were a lot more then that though. must have been thinking about those jbl eons...

 

[gafftaper]

Well we are pursing the full system upgrade listed above with the addition of two SRM 350's. The idea being that for a really simple setup, they can plug a mic into a SRM 350 and be good to go. While I can also use them as stage monitors for a full setup. They really listened to my concerns about the full system adding logistical complications that need to be considered. The SRM 350's seemed like a great solution to me. Now to get quotes and find the money.

If you are a dealer and can cut me a deal, send me a PM.

 

[jkowtko]

I've been running sound for the middle school winter and spring concerts (choir, string orchestra, band, guitar ensemble, jazz band, faculty rock band) for a few years now, and if you want to stay on budget you might want to consider doing what I'm doing:

* SRM450 speakers and speaker stands. I would not pernanently mount anything in a gym, and I think freestanding speakers give the best acoustic result, eliminating most wall-based reflections and keepin the sound source in the open. Self-powered is much simpler than speaker+amp, especially for a school with laymen and varying needs. I would not get the SRM350s ... they sound like crap compared with the SRM450 ... I've used both and would only buy the 450. I think they also sound better than Yamaha or JBL self-powered.

* If you have raised bleachers inthe gym, then your audience will be your acoustic buffer. I use nothing on the walls, position the speakers 15 feet from the edge of the audience seating area and point towards the center. Works great for me.

* I also have a center fill, using an Anchor AN-1000x ... bought it used for $100. I have another one I use for the choir monitor, so they can hear the piano.

* board: I am using my 01v96, but have also used analog here as well. For the school's budget I suggest starting small, such as a Mackie profx12, just so you can get some mics out there. It's a very inexpensive board at just under $250 new.

* mics: Those dynamics mics won't pick up any kid more than 4 inches away. I've used a bunch of Behringer C2s, and at $50/pr you cannot beat the price-to-quality ratio. The parents for the first time can hear their children singing in the choir, and the quality of those voices doesn't warrant anything better than a Behringer. And these condensors will pick up anything you point them at, regardless of distance. I also have some decent CAD mics that I will use when I want sharp pickup on percussion, but otherwise the cheap ones work just fine for the school.

* forget about compressor or GEQ unless you can find them cheap used. I pretty much run everything flat and work on mic placement to eliminate feedback due to resonance in the room. Having the digital board helps a lot, but you can manage without.

* FX is on your little Mackie board -- so you can make the gym sound like a concert hall (I have come close to it).

So, for $1500 or close to it:
* 2 SRM450 with stands ($1200)
* Mackie profx12 ($250)
* 2 pr Behringer C2s ($100)
* 4 GLS audio SM-57/58 knockoffs ($120)
* 10-pak GLS 50' XLR ($120)
* 10-pak sound stage boom tripod stands ($100)
* Behringer stereo DI for the video player ($30)

** GLS is Orange County Speaker. I have bought a ton of cables from them over time, nice clutch-based neutrik-like connectors, and have never had a bad cable or end. (other brands, have had several bad cables)

** The cheapo mic stands I bought as disposable, but after three years have had no breakages. One of my best investments yet

If you like any of the above, I'll be happy to make suggestions for hte next tier of inexpensive add-ons to the kit. I have run anywhere from 14 to 24 channels for these concerts. I'm sure you could spend $10k for this school, but I think you can just as easily spend $2k with roughly the same result.

Thanks. John

 

[techno89]

Just to give you an idea of my high school's portable setup and I'm sorry if this is at the wrong time but I am just chiming into this now (usually in the lighting forum):

On a cart we have two Mackie unpowered speakers, Cable, Stands, and a Mackie All in one Mixer/Amp. We keep the Shure PGX24's in a secure area and bring them out as needed.

In our auditorium, which is installed, we keep it very simple so the tech people don't need to get involved for assemblies. We have (in a closet) a small 8ch Mackie board, a QSC amp and a rack mount power switch (thing) to turn it all on off, and a shure mic receiver always hooked, (the asst principal keeps a mic) so they can walk in any time and have a wireless working and if they need anything past that than the tech people can get involved.

 

[museav]

* SRM450 speakers and speaker stands. I would not pernanently mount anything in a gym, and I think freestanding speakers give the best acoustic result, eliminating most wall-based reflections and keepin the sound source in the open.

Getting the sound to the listeners, or maximizing the direct energy, while avoiding reflections off the walls and ceiling, minimizing the indirect energy, is typically the goal for intelligibility. That often means getting the speakers up higher and aimed down at the listeners, something usually not possible with freestanding speakers. It also means using speakers with appropriate pattern control for the application (and hopefully a little more consistent pattern than the vertical pattern of the SRM450 which has some pretty significant variations in pattern as well as noticeable lobing in the speech frequencies).

* If you have raised bleachers inthe gym, then your audience will be your acoustic buffer. I use nothing on the walls, position the speakers 15 feet from the edge of the audience seating area and point towards the center. Works great for me.

On the 'acoustic buffer', with portable speakers the people at the top of the stand are furthest from the speakers and thus to get good coverage would need to be close to on axis of the speaker coverage, meaning about half of the energy of the speaker would be hitting surfaces above the occupied stands. This is another aspect where flown speakers often provide a benefit as you can not only take more effective advantage of the speaker pattern but you can also reduce the differences in distance to listeners in a manner that allows for better coverage of the listeners with less energy hitting ther surfaces. And physically separated speakers with overlapping coverage can be less than ideal with mono sources due to the interactions of the two sources at the listeners.

They approaches employed seem to be making the best of a situation but are not necessarily how one how one would want to approach it if there were other options.

* board: I am using my 01v96, but have also used analog here as well. For the school's budget I suggest starting small, such as a Mackie profx12, just so you can get some mics out there. It's a very inexpensive board at just under $250 new.

It was mentioned that they're looking for a 16-20 channel mixer, so the ProFX12 would not seem to be a viable option and spending funds on equipment that may not be an effective solution is not necessarily good stewardship.

This seems to be a good example of the general issue of dealing with budgets based on something other than an appropriate solution. One approach to this situation is to purchase a system that meets the budget knowing that it will not provide the needed/desired functionality. Another approach is define a system that supports the desired functionality but to only purchase the portions of that which fit in the budget. A third approach is to define a system that supports the desired functionality and then try to find the money to implement it. The choice of which approach is the most effective and practical often comes down to whether the priority is functionality or budget or how much these two often competing aspects can be revised.