Flat support in narrow space

DevonN

Member
Hi Folks,
So long-story short my wife works with kids theatre and asked me to help on a couple shows last year (one as just a build hand and the other three smaller shows as the sole builder). Fast forward to this year and I have 5 shows on my agenda, one down four to go. I am great with my hands and a quick learner and the old guys around the theatre are a great resource, but I'm looking for some a new solution to an old problem we have (as an IT manager by trade, looking for solutions is what I do).

We have a narrow performance hall that has a tile floor and dry-walled ceiling. When I say narrow, the distance between the audience and the back wall is less than 20 feet. On the back wall is a curtain that can either go flat against the wall or stand-out ~2' for actors to run back and forth.

In our next show the director (not my wife, but my wife's name is still attached) would like a wall that runs the width of the stage but also have the curtain out from the wall. With 25+ kids on stage you can see that having jacks presents an issue (either they have to jump them behind the curtain or the wall stands out another 2-3').

There are 4 - 4x10' flats lying lengthwise on the set for a total of 20' long x 8' high. The wall isn't supporting any weight besides itself and actors won't be leaning or touching the wall (accidents do happen though).

I did this last year with three jacks/cinder blocks and stiffeners/battens but the curtain was flat on the wall and nobody had to pass behind. I've been told attaching to the back wall is not an option (concrete/block and they don't want holes).

Is there a better option?

I've thought of a few but wanted some other opinions before I build it the standard way.

- Shallow jacks with heavier weight
- 2-foot wing walls on an angle and a single jack on the middle seam
- putting a light behind the curtain and marking the jacks -> the kids will just have to deal with it
- FastCap's third hand system with conduit hangers
- galvanized steel pipe but this is a more permanent solution (it would be nice to have an option in that space)

Any ideas/opinions/expertise would be appreciated.
 
Just to get this straight,you cannot attach to the floor, wall, or ceiling? Any beams you or structural framing overhead you can anchor to by "holeless" means of clamps or spreaders?

And is this wall in front of curtain 2' from up stage wall or behind it? I guess it must be down stage of the down stage curtain placement.

Maybe some way to bracket off curtain track? Not sure what you have as I am use to a dead hung pipe batten and track clamped to that but you may have track anchored to drywall with molly bolts.

How long is wall? Just two returns on ends might be enough if you can get a kind of horizontal truss or diaphragm action at top of wall.
 
Build a platform behind the wall to act as a brace. Put a stair on either end so the kids can run across the platform without tripping over jacks...

In the photo i indicated not making the platform so the tallest kid's head will show, but I think I placed the curtain where you said, so platform height shouldn't matter. Also I would consider running the flats vertically so they're not stacked on each other. Stronger that way...

image1.jpeg
 
Bill: Correct, no fasteners to floor, ceiling or wall.

I've done two quick sketches that hopefully help; sorry did them in pencil and then scanned them in, should have used a fine-point marker.

The curtain track is a flimsy white track you'd buy from any home-reno store; it's already pulling out in one place and is on my list of suggested upgrades.

The wall itself will be two 10' sections butted together.

Aaron: That's a good suggestion, I think we have some collapsible platform around, though it's what we use to form the audience risers there may be some left.
 

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How far from floor to ceiling? I wonder if an acro-prop (or several) would work? You know those spring-loaded tension rods for curtains? Think of those, but vertical instead of horizontal.

Care would have to be taken to position the prop under a joist so as not to bust through the ceiling drywall.
 
Hi Folks,
So long-story short my wife works with kids theatre and asked me to help on a couple shows last year (one as just a build hand and the other three smaller shows as the sole builder). Fast forward to this year and I have 5 shows on my agenda, one down four to go. I am great with my hands and a quick learner and the old guys around the theatre are a great resource, but I'm looking for some a new solution to an old problem we have (as an IT manager by trade, looking for solutions is what I do).

We have a narrow performance hall that has a tile floor and dry-walled ceiling. When I say narrow, the distance between the audience and the back wall is less than 20 feet. On the back wall is a curtain that can either go flat against the wall or stand-out ~2' for actors to run back and forth.

In our next show the director (not my wife, but my wife's name is still attached) would like a wall that runs the width of the stage but also have the curtain out from the wall. With 25+ kids on stage you can see that having jacks presents an issue (either they have to jump them behind the curtain or the wall stands out another 2-3').

There are 4 - 4x10' flats lying lengthwise on the set for a total of 20' long x 8' high. The wall isn't supporting any weight besides itself and actors won't be leaning or touching the wall (accidents do happen though).

I did this last year with three jacks/cinder blocks and stiffeners/battens but the curtain was flat on the wall and nobody had to pass behind. I've been told attaching to the back wall is not an option (concrete/block and they don't want holes).

Is there a better option?

I've thought of a few but wanted some other opinions before I build it the standard way.

- Shallow jacks with heavier weight
- 2-foot wing walls on an angle and a single jack on the middle seam
- putting a light behind the curtain and marking the jacks -> the kids will just have to deal with it
- FastCap's third hand system with conduit hangers
- galvanized steel pipe but this is a more permanent solution (it would be nice to have an option in that space)

Any ideas/opinions/expertise would be appreciated.
@DevonN Summarizing your situation, the crux appears to be: Being 'voluntold' by a wife with great expectations of small spaces, coupled with a big heart and a desire to help people. NONE of us here have EVER been in this situation. (As if).
Thoughts: If the performers knock it over U/S, it won't likely fall but it may damage the curtain before colliding with the wall. Does your wife know a creative set designer who can work artistically designed jacks on to the D/S side and make them part of the design? [For instance; It's a castle wall and these are the buttresses that support the wall] Granted the jacks still occupy floor space and are a trip hazard to be avoided BUT they're now out in the open, easily visible to everyone including the cast who should have no trouble seeing them without additional lights to get broken in the dark confines behind your curtain. You're speaking of childrens' theatre. Perhaps there's a clever choreographer involved who can work avoidance of the jacks into her exciting / entertaining / playful choreography? I guess what I'm suggesting is: Perhaps there's sufficient demands being made to spread them around rather than shouldering ALL of the burden. Lighten up on yourself Devon. Permit a few of the other 'fun seekers' a chance to share in the creative thinking. Also Devon, know when someone from down the highway is pulling your chain mercilessly. @Dionysus is in your town. Perhaps Steve's got a few local options for you.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
You could make a series of "inverted" jacks, with the diagonal bracing happening overhead, and only flat steel sill irons to be walked over. Here's a cocktail napkin.

I would not accept any solution that creates a trip hazard that you just have to be careful of.
 

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I like bobgaggle's idea. If the "wall" was stiff an 8 or 12" high deck would do it with the right connection. Put some weight into it as well.

Think of 1x6 "L"s
 
We have a narrow performance hall that has a tile floor and dry-walled ceiling. When I say narrow, the distance between the audience and the back wall is less than 20 feet. On the back wall is a curtain that can either go flat against the wall or stand-out ~2' for actors to run back and forth.

In our next show the director (not my wife, but my wife's name is still attached) would like a wall that runs the width of the stage but also have the curtain out from the wall. With 25+ kids on stage you can see that having jacks presents an issue (either they have to jump them behind the curtain or the wall stands out another 2-3').

There are 4 - 4x10' flats lying lengthwise on the set for a total of 20' long x 8' high. The wall isn't supporting any weight besides itself and actors won't be leaning or touching the wall (accidents do happen though).
@DevonN Summarizing your situation, the crux appears to be: Being 'voluntold' by a wife with great expectations of small spaces, coupled with a big heart and a desire to help people. NONE of us here have EVER been in this situation. (As if).
Thoughts: If the performers knock it over U/S, it won't likely fall but it may damage the curtain before colliding with the wall. Does your wife know a creative set designer who can work artistically designed jacks on to the D/S side and make them part of the design? [For instance; It's a castle wall and these are the buttresses that support the wall] Granted the jacks still occupy floor space and are a trip hazard to be avoided BUT they're now out in the open, easily visible to everyone including the cast who should have no trouble seeing them without additional lights to get broken in the dark confines behind your curtain. You're speaking of childrens' theatre. Perhaps there's a clever choreographer involved who can work avoidance of the jacks into her exciting / entertaining / playful choreography? I guess what I'm suggesting is: Perhaps there's sufficient demands being made to spread them around rather than shouldering ALL of the burden. Lighten up on yourself Devon. Permit a few of the other 'fun seekers' a chance to share in the creative thinking. Also Devon, know when someone from down the highway is pulling your chain mercilessly. @Dionysus is in your town. Perhaps Steve's got a few local options for you.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

@DevonN Which venue is this? At first I thought you might of been taking about Pecurnier Hall, however there is a grid in there you could attach to in most places.
I could give a look myself, and know quite a few people in the London area myself. Might of just worked on shows at the Palace and Arts Project myself, not to mention my regular gig at the McManus.

Also have to say that @bobgaggle 's suggestion is pretty good. Would want a look at the venue and some other details really.
 
Good guess! Off the top of my head I didn't think the grid went quite close enough, but I'll be in there Thursday to throw the flats up anyhow and just due to timing it'll be standard Jack's I think. I also thought Bob's idea was good but the pipes or props would be a great longer term, reusable solution; I have two more shows in there this season, I bet one will need a wall so maybe I can plan ahead for those ones. On the other hand I have to move the curtain and that track may just fail finally so I'll end up replacing that.

I'm sure we'll see each other on my wife's big show in the spring, it's going to be a doozy.

Thanks all for the suggestions, I know I'll have more for you folks; being voluntold has turned in to a good job (and a great excuse to buy tools).
 
You could make a series of "inverted" jacks, with the diagonal bracing happening overhead, and only flat steel sill irons to be walked over. Here's a cocktail napkin.

I would not accept any solution that creates a trip hazard that you just have to be careful of.

This is what i thought of too.
Build a platform behind the wall to act as a brace. Put a stair on either end so the kids can run across the platform without tripping over jacks...

In the photo i indicated not making the platform so the tallest kid's head will show, but I think I placed the curtain where you said, so platform height shouldn't matter. Also I would consider running the flats vertically so they're not stacked on each other. Stronger that way...

View attachment 15711
This would also work and the platform would only need to be 1 step up (maybe 6in) if there was enough weight down low the it would not fall over forward. but only being 2ft wide it might be hard to get that sort of canter levered weight distribution. Did you say you could not screw to the floor?
Regards
Geoff
 
@Crisp image Yep, the floor is out of play; think high school tiled hall-way.

I'll have to experiment with the platform idea and see how well it works; right now my timeline is to short to try something like that.
Who would build a stage or performance space with a floor like that? Well some one who doesn't work in a space like that that is who. one of our local venues has polished floorboards and you cant do any thing to it either oh and the put the stage box for the sound multi-core in the middle of the back wall so you cant even open the curtain for a white flat surface. Some people should not design or build in spaces they do not understand! (Rant over)
 
The space in question is a small black box that was semi recently converted from a storefront space into a theatre space. Personally I'd love to put a more suitable stage floor in at some time...
 

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