flats and wagons advice: new program

swelden

Member
I'm looking to help start (restart) a high school drama program, and I'll take any advice y'all have re: flats and wagons. The school does two plays per year, and the drama class has numerous one-acts, etc. There is limited wing ans storage space, of course.
My tentative plan is to build eight 4x8 Hollywood flats (1/4" plywood face, ripped 3/4" plywood for the frame -$40 each). I'm also thinking of building a number of wagons so flat use could be more versatile. (Would 2x8 flats, with 2 4x8 flats per side, and 1/4" plywood on the sides be stable enough?) I've read recommendations on this site for 4x8 wagons. This is possible, but more difficult, space-wise. Would wagons with one 45-degree side be the most useful? Lastly, I'd like to put flats on the edge (vs. middle) of each wagon, thinking this would look better. Obviously, we need to prioritize, due to budget and space constraints. Maybe v-flats would be most versatile? (If so, I'd need to know how to hinge them to eliminate the gap. )
Well, that's my rambling, disjointed call for advice. I'll take all I can get.
 
I'm looking to help start (restart) a high school drama program, and I'll take any advice y'all have re: flats and wagons.
My tentative plan is to build eight 4x8 Hollywood flats (1/4" plywood face, ripped 3/4" plywood for the frame -$40 each). I'm also thinking of building a number of wagons so flat use could be more versatile. (Would 2x8 flats, with 2 4x8 flats per side, and 1/4" plywood on the sides be stable enough?) I've read recommendations on this site for 4x8 wagons. This is possible, but more difficult, space-wise. Would wagons with one 45-degree side be the most useful? Lastly, I'd like to put flats on the edge (vs. middle) of each wagon, thinking this would look better. Obviously, we need to prioritize, due to budget and space constraints. Maybe v-flats would be most versatile? (If so, I'd need to know how to hinge them to eliminate the gap. )
Well, that's my rambling, disjointed call for advice. I'll take all I can get.
Well done on restarting the program. My thoughts on your wagons is this. I have done something similar with flats on a wagon that is tall and narrow. The flats I used were 10ftx4ft and fixer to a 2ft wide wagon. The trick here is to keep the center of gravity low. So on the wagon place some weight like shot bags on the wagon. it will take a little experiment to get the right amount of weight (I have used blocks of steel that are 26kg ea and that works really well and I used them because I had them.
Look around fro materials and you might be surprised where you can get it from at a great price.
Mounting on the leading edge of a wagon can be done with the low center of gravity method counter weighting the back down. I make my wagons in standard sizes from 4ft to 8ft long and 2.5ft to 4ft wide
I hope this has been useful for you. Oh and don't forget to have some sort of brakes on the wagons too.
Regards
Geoff
 
Hi @swelden. Sounds like you’ve got a fun project ahead of you! Another thing to consider is Broadway flats and periaktoi. I’m a couple weeks out from finishing up a build of those for the K-8 school I volunteer with. I’ll post some pictures when they’re done.

There’s lots of options - I thought about Hollywood flats and wagons before I opted for periaktoi. Build for your space and your needs and you can’t go wrong.
 
Offhand I would be disinclined to use ripped plywood for the framing members, preferring the usual softwood boards. Good plywood, with nice outer faces and without interior voids, is not cheap, and in general gluing and screwing or nailing edgewise into plywood isn't the strongest. You're also relying on your rip cuts being nice and square and straight to get good gluing/assembly faces, and (assuming it's done on a table saw or bandsaw or skilsaw) that's not always the easiest to manage precisely while manipulating a large, heavy 4x8 sheet.
 
Offhand I would be disinclined to use ripped plywood for the framing members, preferring the usual softwood boards. Good plywood, with nice outer faces and without interior voids, is not cheap, and in general gluing and screwing or nailing edgewise into plywood isn't the strongest. You're also relying on your rip cuts being nice and square and straight to get good gluing/assembly faces, and (assuming it's done on a table saw or bandsaw or skilsaw) that's not always the easiest to manage precisely while manipulating a large, heavy 4x8 sheet.
@swelden
I pay around $50 per sheet of oversized (48.5"x96.5") shop grade birch ply. so... 4 rips at 2 1/2" gives me framing for one 4x8 hollywood flat with toggles on 32" centers. I can get 4 such frames from 1 sheet of plywood. $13 for a sheet of luan puts me at $52 for 4 sheets plus my 1 sheet of nice plywood with minimal voids=$102 for four flats. $4 for 16oz of titebond, $10 for 5000 staples.

All in $116. $29 per flat. With the "good" plywood.

I only make this argument cause we make flats with plywood often. Usually when its a cheaper job, specifically for the cost savings. If you're concerned about managing a full sheet on the table saw, break it down into manageable chunks and then make your skinny rips.
 
I'm pretty comfortable with the construction end of things; it's WHAT to build that I'm looking for, mostly. For example, would it make sense to permanently attach to 2x8 wagons, or allow for the flats to be separated? Or should I build 8x8 flats, knowing that 4x8 flats would always be joined, anyway? Are hinged flats a must-have? Would most sets call for 46-degree sides, or 90-degree sides, or neither?

I'm also trying to hide the wagon casters, but keep them as wide as possible, for stability. Maybe 2 1/2", hard rubber, mounted low enough so they can pivot beneath the 2x4 frame, but add a 1/4" face along the bottom of the wagon (3/4" for clearance) to hide the casters?
 
A stack of 4x8 flats is the way to go. They're easy for one person to move around and you have more storage possibilities than 8x8s. Don't permanently attach them to a platform because then you have a 3D thing to store somewhere.

As for platforms, a complement of 4x8s, 2x8s, and 4x4s is useful, mostly 4x8s and a couple of the others. Some of those handy leg-a-matics from rose brand are cool to get you your various heights. You can bolt on casters as you need them, add skirting as needed...
 
A stack of 4x8 flats is the way to go. They're easy for one person to move around and you have more storage possibilities than 8x8s. Don't permanently attach them to a platform because then you have a 3D thing to store somewhere.

As for platforms, a complement of 4x8s, 2x8s, and 4x4s is useful, mostly 4x8s and a couple of the others. Some of those handy leg-a-matics from rose brand are cool to get you your various heights. You can bolt on casters as you need them, add skirting as needed...
Thanks! When using 4x8 platforms, do directors/actors mind the 2' or 4' wide raised area (4" high) that would face the audience? My initial thought was that 2x8 wagons could eliminate it. What would be the advantage of 4x8 wagons?
 
I'm pretty comfortable with the construction end of things; it's WHAT to build that I'm looking for, mostly. For example, would it make sense to permanently attach to 2x8 wagons, or allow for the flats to be separated? Or should I build 8x8 flats, knowing that 4x8 flats would always be joined, anyway? Are hinged flats a must-have? Would most sets call for 46-degree sides, or 90-degree sides, or neither?

I'm also trying to hide the wagon casters, but keep them as wide as possible, for stability. Maybe 2 1/2", hard rubber, mounted low enough so they can pivot beneath the 2x4 frame, but add a 1/4" face along the bottom of the wagon (3/4" for clearance) to hide the casters?

What are the dimensions of your proscenium? An 8' tall flat may be easy to make, but could look awfully short relative to the height of your proscenium opening. I've always hated 8' tall flats. If you have some tall kids or some platform levels in front of them, they look even worse. 2 1/2" is also quite small for theatrical-use casters. The weight of your wagon always seems to grow with the addition of flats, furniture, etc. Bravo to you for re-starting a high school drama program!
 
Thanks! When using 4x8 platforms, do directors/actors mind the 2' or 4' wide raised area (4" high) that would face the audience? My initial thought was that 2x8 wagons could eliminate it. What would be the advantage of 4x8 wagons?

Not sure what that means, but I'll take a stab at a response...

The whole point of this exercise is that you have an inventory of stock scenery to pull from when the next show is ready to be built. Questions about director preferences get sorted out during the planning of the show. With this being a new department (I'm guessing without a lot of support from school admin) you take a proportionately appropriate chunk of seed money you got and sink some into building some stock scenery that can get used over and over again. Versatility is key. Flats and Platforms are just very very versatile rectangles for looking pretty and putting things on.

Conversation about 2x4 vs 4x8 wagons doesn't really mean anything without context. We need a show and a design before we start talking about what size platform to use. That's why I cautioned against permanently attaching flats to wagons as "stock" scenery. Don't limit yourself by pre-building rolling wall units you think will be useful later. Stock flats and platforms are always needed (but you'll never have the size the designer calls for o_O). worry about specific details later...
 
What are the dimensions of your proscenium? An 8' tall flat may be easy to make, but could look awfully short relative to the height of your proscenium opening. I've always hated 8' tall flats. If you have some tall kids or some platform levels in front of them, they look even worse. 2 1/2" is also quite small for theatrical-use casters. The weight of your wagon always seems to grow with the addition of flats, furniture, etc. Bravo to you for re-starting a high school drama program!
Proscenium height, in total, looks like 16'. The upper partial curtain (not sure what it's called) brings that height down to about 12'.
 
Not sure what that means, but I'll take a stab at a response...

The whole point of this exercise is that you have an inventory of stock scenery to pull from when the next show is ready to be built. Questions about director preferences get sorted out during the planning of the show. With this being a new department (I'm guessing without a lot of support from school admin) you take a proportionately appropriate chunk of seed money you got and sink some into building some stock scenery that can get used over and over again. Versatility is key. Flats and Platforms are just very very versatile rectangles for looking pretty and putting things on.

Conversation about 2x4 vs 4x8 wagons doesn't really mean anything without context. We need a show and a design before we start talking about what size platform to use. That's why I cautioned against permanently attaching flats to wagons as "stock" scenery. Don't limit yourself by pre-building rolling wall units you think will be useful later. Stock flats and platforms are always needed (but you'll never have the size the designer calls for o_O). worry about specific details later...

I agree. I'll probably do 12 4x8 flats, 4 2x8 wagons, and one specially built door flat on its own wagon. I love ambitious directors who want big, or tricky sets, but I'm not sure what will be possible, with so many events happening so frequently. Thanks for your input.
 
From my limited experience, our theater uses 3' x 10' and 4' x 10' muslin covered flats. They have a few 4' x 8' sheets of plywood they've used in the past and I always feel like they look stubby on stage. I prefer the 3x10s personally for the way they fit and fill our stage. I built a perioktos with retractable casters for each size flat last year. Need to build at least one more of each size, preferably two more. Good luck with your project!
 

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