Installs FOH Sound Position

[Zachary Tarantino]

Hey all,

Im more in the Lighting field, but im doing some research for my place of work, University level. Our current FOH booth isn't ideal for audio. We are in a projection booth that sits in an enclosed room behind the audience about 4' off the ground, and underneath an overhang from the balcony above. Theres a 6' wide x 4' tall opening in the wall facing the stage so that sound and lights can see and hear.

Currently running an X32 (hope to move to a m32 soon) with some studio monitors and a headset in the booth so the operator can listen in. Our current approach is to mix as best we can in the booth, and then hop out into the house to fine tune via an ipad. For longer running or higher profile productions, we put audio at a temp tech table to get the mix down, but still run the show from our booth.

So, down to brass tax. Our orchestra audience seating is split into 3 sections, about 150 on the left and right and 175 in the center section. Do you think it would be better to make a permanent FOH position for audio that is in the back left corner of the center audience, slightly underneath the balcony overhang than our current situation?

I understand it would be best to have them center, not under the overhang. But that is currently not possible for a number of reason (too many seats to take out to make possible)

Thanks all

 

[jkowtko]

Back corner may have reflections, still potentially difficult to mix from.
Do you need a permanent position? Or can you create a makeshift table that sits over the back of 3-4 seats, allowing you to try out different positions over the next several productions to see what works best?

 

[Zachary Tarantino]

Back corner may have reflections, still potentially difficult to mix from.
Do you need a permanent position? Or can you create a makeshift table that sits over the back of 3-4 seats, allowing you to try out different positions over the next several productions to see what works best?

We would like a final permanent position in the end, but yes, I think it would be good to test out some options during shows. Thanks!

 

[TimMc]

A couple of things to think about: sound quality and seat kills. Find the place(s) where it sounds mostly representative of the rest of the house (good luck!). Now talk to the fire marshal about how putting your tech world there would affect emergency egress, auditorium capacity, and whether or not the rows you obstruct can seat paying customers (or even the operator). Our PACs main theater has continental seating (no center aisle). If we block any portion of a row, the house can only sell the outermost 17 seats on each end and the rows have 60 seats. Producers and presenters don't like losing those seats over a 5 seat wide tech table that takes 3 rows out - about 60 seats off sale represents a lot of revenue.

 

[Zachary Tarantino]

A couple of things to think about: sound quality and seat kills. Find the place(s) where it sounds mostly representative of the rest of the house (good luck!). Now talk to the fire marshal about how putting your tech world there would affect emergency egress, auditorium capacity, and whether or not the rows you obstruct can seat paying customers (or even the operator). Our PACs main theater has continental seating (no center aisle). If we block any portion of a row, the house can only sell the outermost 17 seats on each end and the rows have 60 seats. Producers and presenters don't like losing those seats over a 5 seat wide tech table that takes 3 rows out - about 60 seats off sale represents a lot of revenue.

Thanks!

Im aware of seat kills, and most shows that come through our theater (un)fortunately dont fill the house anyway, so im not super concerned with selling the kills to producers,

 

[RonHebbard]

We would like a final permanent position in the end, but yes, I think it would be good to test out some options during shows. Thanks!

@Zachary Tarantino In the 1970's, I used to record and play effects in a thrust stage auditorium. The seating was arranged in a 220 degree arc, both orchestra level and balcony. For effects use, we had 24 output channels driving 25 amplifier channels powering 28 speakers; some were bi-amped via electronic crossovers while others were Tannoy 15" passive concentric 3 way boxes with the high frequency horn within the throat of the mid frequency horn within the center of the 15" low frequency cone (Tannoy "Belvedere")
When it came to effects coverage, we were well covered.

Monday evenings during the summer, when our Equity free day shifted to Monday's, our department of music decided to run a summer jazz series featuring established jazz artists ranging from solo piano, solo vocalists, solo guitarists through dual vibes and trios or quartets.
We did NOT have any speaker systems intended to provide even coverage live reinforcement sweeping 220 degrees by two seating levels high.

In my personal bag of toys I owned a pair of JBL dual 15" rear loaded low frequency cabinets; a pair of JBL 2397 90 x 140 degree mid frequency horns and four JBL 2405 high frequency slot radiators along with a rack of BGW amps and Yamaha F1030 electronic crossovers.
Add an Orban 622B stereo, fully parametric four band per channel EQ and 1 DBX 162 Stereo limiter:
Shake, season to taste, and you've got the basics of a 220 x 40 degree, mono, reinforcement system.

Here's where I tie this back to your mixing location query:
Positioning of my JBL's was critical.
Splaying the two mid frequency horns was especially critical (they sounded 'phasey' where they interfered with one another .

FORTUNATELY, two things worked in my favor:
1; The venue had 11 aisles, 11 up and 11 down; thus the venue had a CENTRE aisle where the overlap could be placed AND no patrons sat on the centre line.
2; The venue had two vomitories, one house left of centre, the other house right.
Centre aisle to 'hide' the overlap.
Either of two 'off centre' vomitories meant I could sit and mix in one of the vomitories, listen to one of my JBL 3-way's ON AXIS, hear what the patrons were hearing and happiness prevailed.

Bottom Line: Mixing on the centre line is usually best, but as Ivan Beaver's infamous for saying: "It depends".
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[Zachary Tarantino]

@Zachary Tarantino In the 1970's, I used to record and play effects in a thrust stage auditorium. The seating was arranged in a 220 degree arc, both orchestra level and balcony. For effects use, we had 24 output channels driving 25 amplifier channels powering 28 speakers; some were bi-amped via electronic crossovers while others were Tannoy 15" passive concentric 3 way boxes with the high frequency horn within the throat of the mid frequency horn within the center of the 15" low frequency cone (Tannoy "Belvedere")
When it came to effects coverage, we were well covered.

Monday evenings during the summer, when our Equity free day shifted to Monday's, our department of music decided to run a summer jazz series featuring established jazz artists ranging from solo piano, solo vocalists, solo guitarists through dual vibes and trios or quartets.
We did NOT have any speaker systems intended to provide even coverage live reinforcement sweeping 220 degrees by two seating levels high.

In my personal bag of toys I owned a pair of JBL dual 15" rear loaded low frequency cabinets; a pair of JBL 2397 90 x 140 degree mid frequency horns and four JBL 2405 high frequency slot radiators along with a rack of BGW amps and Yamaha F1030 electronic crossovers.
Add an Orban 622B stereo, fully parametric four band per channel EQ and 1 DBX 162 Stereo limiter:
Shake, season to taste, and you've got the basics of a 220 x 40 degree, mono, reinforcement system.

Here's where I tie this back to your mixing location query:
Positioning of my JBL's was critical.
Splaying the two mid frequency horns was especially critical (they sounded 'phasey' where they interfered with one another .

FORTUNATELY, two things worked in my favor:
1; The venue had 11 aisles, 11 up and 11 down; thus the venue had a CENTRE aisle where the overlap could be placed AND no patrons sat on the centre line.
2; The venue had two vomitories, one house left of centre, the other house right.
Centre aisle to 'hide' the overlap.
Either of two 'off centre' vomitories meant I could sit and mix in one of the vomitories, listen to one of my JBL 3-way's ON AXIS, hear what the patrons were hearing and happiness prevailed.

Bottom Line: Mixing on the centre line is usually best, but as Ivan Beaver's infamous for saying: "It depends".
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Thank you for the story and little bit of history, Ron! And yes, it always depends. Ill be taking a couple different mixing positions for a test drive over the next couple event!

Thanks!

 

[RonHebbard]

Thank you for the story and little bit of history, Ron! And yes, it always depends. I'll be taking a couple of different mixing positions for a test drive over the next couple of events!

Thanks!

@Zachary Tarantino Definitely try several locations; in the sense of moving portable tables around, I'm neither suggesting you knock down walls nor violate fire codes / egress routes.

The first rule is: There are no rules; several fundamental laws of physics for sure, but no rules.

As long as you're not endangering lives, never hesitate to try.
In today's era of digital consoles with various options for wireless remote control, conceivably you could evaluate potential mixing locations from any location within your venue from your phone or pad. I'm not suggesting you operate all your productions from a seat in the middle of your patrons but you could certainly evaluate locations prior to setting any construction / building renovation plans in stone.
All the best.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[Dionysus]

No hurt in trying. The venue I typically mix in these days I generally have to mix from the booth which is completely out of ear-shot of the throw of the speakers, I've had to develop a "sixth sense" as it were and generally take an educated guess as to how it sounds in the house until I can evaluate it myself. Certainly not ideal.
Generally, when I CAN put the console down in the house or such I am under an overhang or such as well, and again it takes some knowledge and experience to know how different it may sound from where I am mixing in. Temporary acoustic treatments help a LOT when in corners.

As you suggested in your OP, no matter what it is important to "walk the house" when you can to gain an understanding on how things do and will sound from all areas. How many times when walking into a different venue I've found that different parts of the house sound completely different (and will do what I can to mediate this). It is important even when in an ideal mixing location to evaluate from all over the house when you can.

And indeed as Ron said, as long as you aren't endangering anyone or breaking fire-codes and such please do try different locations!

The Venue I am TD at just upgraded their sound system, and I opted to go with Dante for the flexibility of Plug-and-Play with the console et all. I can put the console darn near anywhere I want without any repatching, which has already proven useful at times!

Good Luck!

Cheers,
Steve.