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Gel Holder Question...plus...

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by tenor_singer, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. tenor_singer

    tenor_singer Active Member

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    Good morning (or afternoon),

    I have a show opening in a couple of weeks and have actually been fortunate enough to have enough equipment and capacity to run not only lighting enough to wash the stage but to also add some ** gasp ** color! I have never prepared gel holders before. I have a couple of questions:

    1. What kind of tape do you use to hold the gel in place? I was thinking instead of using tape, I was going to drill two small holes in the upper corner of the gel frame and use brass brads to hold the frame together.

    2. Do you need to safety the holders at all? I bought some good strength flower wire (For lack of better term) that I was going to use as a small safety cable connecting the gel holder to the light's frame.

    3. Does anybody have color scrollers? Are they worth the financial investment? I was looking at a couple different brands. I was also looking at the rosco (?) inteli-cue as well. Anybody use these? Any feedback?
    Thanks!

    Tenor.
     
  2. Radman

    Radman Well-Known Member

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    I've never used tape to hold a gel in the frame, and though every frame I've ever seen has the holes, I rarely use brass paper fasteners; only when specifically requested. This is partly because it is a pain and takes time to find those buggers then put them in, but mainly because gravity has generally been sufficient to keep the gel from flying up, and the gel slot on the instrument holds it in on the sides. It wouldn't hurt to fasten it it, in fact it may be a good habit to get into; but like I said, it isn't necessary by any means.

    I've never seen a safety for just a frame unless the instrument was missing one or more of the brackets that holds the gel frame in place. And if you use safety frames, I see almost no point to safetying it at all (from the sounds of it yours are metal).

    On the subject of color scrollers, I've never used one in any of my shows, but every show I wish I had them. However if you have the capacity to simply add more lights, then you could easily expand your inventory with that money instead. At the spaces I've worked it would be highly impractical to hang/circuit another light, so I find myself wishing we had scrollers available. Of course we don't have the money either.

    Hope this helps.
     
  3. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    as far as tape/safety cables etc. you dont need it as long as the frame stays in there without falling out... you definitly dont need to worry about the gel coming out of the frame... and with scrollers i would recomend apollo smartcolor scrollers... they are built well, come with strings that are actually usable in a theatre enviorment, are quiet, and cost less then other scrollers... production advantage is running a sale on them now that includes 6 scrollers, 1 psu, and all cable for 2900.... the thing to think about with scrollers is the price of 1 more light plus a dimmer to control it... so all in all scrollers are a good deal.... and with the i-que... what kind of console do you currently have?
     
  4. propmonkey

    propmonkey Well-Known Member

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    the only time i tape the gel in is if it doesnt fit properly, like if it doesnt cover the area. like last night i didnt have anymore green and i found a peice that just covered the area and i had to tape it in. i sometimes put soem tape on the frame then onto the instrument if i think it could come lose or fall, i especially do this when the instruments are above the house
     
  5. BillESC

    BillESC Well-Known Member Premium Member

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    I'll second the Apollo color scrollers ;)
     
  6. Mr.Pibb

    Mr.Pibb Member

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    I've never heard of safetying gel frames either. As long as they are in properly and secure, they shouldn't fall out. However, I have heard that if a metal frame does happen to fall, and from over 20' in the air, they can cause harm... especially if one of the corners catches ya.

    I'm not aware of the prices of color scrollers, but I can vouche that they are great and can be unique additions to a show. If your using a minimal amount of different color gels, yet you've got a few color scrollers you can add some interesting contrasts... for example a blue wash with a high intensity of pink coming through 5 or 6 scrollers. Just be aware you need a power supply for them and an open circuit on your dimmers for each one. How you patch them is up to you.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2006
  7. cutlunch

    cutlunch Active Member

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    1. What kind of tape do you use to hold the gel in place? I was thinking instead of using tape, I was going to drill two small holes in the upper corner of the gel frame and use brass brads to hold the frame together.


    When I do tape gel in the frames I tend to use a little bit of Gaffa tape not always a good idea as it can get sticky over time. I only tape gel in when it is loose in the gel holder and may come loose. Depending on the cost you may want to buy some clear high temprature tape. It will come in handy to make rainbow gels also if you do get colour scrollers.


    2. Do you need to safety the holders at all? I bought some good strength flower wire (For lack of better term) that I was going to use as a small safety cable connecting the gel holder to the light's frame.

    This depends on the chances of the gel holder falling out ie how steep angle the light is at also how well does the gel holder fit the light. A lot of lights now have a clip for this job. The flower wire if straight metal with no coating would also work.


    3. Does anybody have color scrollers? Are they worth the financial investment? I was looking at a couple different brands. I was also looking at the rosco (?) inteli-cue as well. Anybody use these? Any feedback?
    Thanks!

    Colour scrollers can make up for a lack of enough lights if used properly. They take more maintenance then conventional lights, both in mechanical and gel. It also depends on where you can position them. In a small space just above an audience they maybe to noisy. But in your space that shouldn't be a problem. An I-Cue could be handy for those specials also those last minute setups that happen at school but the money might be better saved for a full intelligent light.

    By the way did you sort out your problems with the sound system such as the feedback?
     
  8. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    You should not be hooking up scrollers to any type of dimmable power, though you will need a control channel for them.... the PSU should plug into a non dim curcuit.... all that goes to the scroller itself is 1-4 pin cable that carries both data and power....
     
  9. Mr.Pibb

    Mr.Pibb Member

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    aye, I stand corrected.
     
  10. Mayhem

    Mayhem Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    In the mad legislative world in which we find ourselves, a feather could drop from your roof and the person could sue for damages. Often it is not the physical damage that matters but the psychological damage. Lawyers love this as it is very difficult to disprove.

    Did the feather hurt me? No. But the shock of it landing on me in a theatre has now caused me to fear birds and as I work as a kindy teacher, I am no longer able to supervise the children outside, or go on school trips for fear of bird attacks. Nor am I able to say “C is for chicken” without feeling nervous or scared.

    Ok – so I got a little creative but this is the reality of a world in which I can go to jail for injuring someone that breaks into my house and trying to make off with my DVD player.

    Whilst I do not safety my gel frames, I am confident in the integrity of my frame holders and would not use a frame in a situation where a frame could fall out. In most cases, it is a pain in the butt to remove them from their holders anyway.

    However, having said that, I can see the day coming where all gel frames must be on a safety and provided it doesn’t interfere with removing the frame, I guess I don’t have an issue. But until that day comes, I doubt that it something that I will give much thought to, or actually do.

    As for tape. – never had to need or inclination to do so but in the case of having a cut that is smaller than the frame, taping it into place makes good sense. Mind you, the new folded gel frames are often that tight that it is a struggle to get the gel in there. If you have gel frames with hinges on them that open up fully – treasure them and do not let them walk!
     
  11. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    Never taped a gel into a frame. When I have taped gels together for effect I use scotch transparent tape... the kind that feels like plastic and looks clear on the roll. Not the kind that feels more like paper and looks cloudy on the roll.

    Never heard of a safety cable for a gel frame. There is almost always a way to position the light that makes it impossible for the frame to fall out. In situations where I have an older instrument with no gel frame latch, pointing at an angle that makes me nervous... I tape it in using Muffler Tape. Muffler tape is thin easily bendable metal with high temperature glue. You can get it at any automotive store.
     
  12. kingfisher1

    kingfisher1 Active Member

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    Can scotch tape really withstand heat well enough? I suppose it must, i've seen it used to tape gels to other gels. but never to a frame which most likely gets hotter then gels.
    also funny story about the tape. it is rumored that before my small private school valued theater we would "create" gels by making squares out of scotch tape and then using a permanant marker to color the tape. Lord knows how well that worked. (Boy am i glad that we now have a tech theater budget!)
     
  13. gafftaper

    gafftaper Senior Team Senior Team Fight Leukemia

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    You misunderstood me. I was saying scotch tape for taping gels splices together. I recomend high temperature "muffler tape" for taping gel frames into instruments.
     
  14. kingfisher1

    kingfisher1 Active Member

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    Pardon me, i was reading very carefully ;) still seem like an awful lot of trouble to go through, buyiings or using up specialty tape just to secure gels.

    Sort of an aside question here, but how do they get that adhesive to withstand htose temperatures? (sounds like science project time!)
     
  15. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

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    Its pretty common practice to tape 2 gels together to do splits or even tape 4 together to get some pretty cool effects... throw a gobo in a with a split gel and throw the instrument a bit out of focus and you will have something that looks almost like a dicroic... you just want to use thin tape, not boxing tape... and not the cloudy scotch tape....
     
  16. tenor_singer

    tenor_singer Active Member

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    Thank you for the replies, everybody.

    I'm sorry for the week delay in my answers. I am knee high in tech week now and have very little free time. I will try to answer all questions asked here:

    1. Somebody asked about my console: We have a strand 300 series console running a rack of CD-80 dimmers.

    2. I noticed this weekend that all of the gel holders for my lights have clips that hold them in place. When I put barndoors on my 8" fresnels, I safty cable those (thankfully as a gym class kicked a ball into one and it lifted out of the holder).

    3. My feedback issue never happened again. The installers think that it was the digital signal processors.

    4. The "hum" in my one channel is still happening. I did manage to get it to stop when I direct boxed a keyboard through the channel and lifted the ground. I make it a point to only use that channel with keyboards now until the issue is resolved by the installers.

    5. I asked about tape because the equipment I inherited nine years ago has gel holders with masking tape cooked to the frames. I was thinking that that wasn't a good thing. I also noticed small holes in the upper corners and considering that I have a dozen boxes of brads sitting in my closet, I was thinking that that would be better. I had a parent suggest duct tape until I told them that in a recent study, duct tape took high marks in all categories except for one where it scored dead last. That category was for holding duct work together. The study said that any application near heat caused the glue to break down.

    Thanks again for the advice on the scrollers.
     
  17. Pie4Weebl

    Pie4Weebl Well-Known Member Fight Leukemia

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    such a thing exists!? Where can I buy them and for how much?
     
  18. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    They exist. I have some down here in Sydney. Have no idea where one would obtain them.
     
  19. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

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    Such frames were often on much older fixtures especially those of the wider sizes such as 8" Fresnel or PAR 64.

    Also of curious nature was the having to do gel with frames designed to house roundells. The kind of slide in track style filter holder.

    I agree that if you have hinged versions - oh' so nice.
     
  20. Chris15

    Chris15 CBMod CB Mods Premium Member

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    Mine are on older fixtures. Thinking about it, they are probably expensive to make and so it is so much cheaper for manufacturers to use folded ones.
     

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