Good PA brands and models for a church

[museav]

As far as which brands are good for churches, perhaps it would be easier ask which are not good for churches as that would be a shorter list.

Actually, which brands and models are good for a church and which brands and models are poor for a church might have a lot in common, it all depends on the situation and what is a good solution in one situation may be a bad option in a different situation.

If you want to address which brands or models have a good or bad reputation in general, are generally liked or not or are common or not then that is a different discussion as you are removing all references to any particular situation. Of course what is offered in that context then cannot be assumed to be applicable to all or any one particular application.

 

[THORNSZ]

Whoa, this community is really educating me and helping me about the technicalities. Thanks a lot guys! Looks like i need to consider that too. as of now, yes we're about to purchase the X32!
We might not use the full of it for now, but eventually we will. 32 to inputs, good sounding mixer and 16 auxiliary outs... who doesnt like it? i think a mixer like that is just so flexible. I guess we'll look for a sound engineer for now to evaluate the place. About taking pictures of our equipment and the area of our church, i will post it as soon as i have it.

For now, if possible can you guys suggest somebody or yourself in my area(Houston) who can help me with this? we badly need a real sound engineer who can setup and train.

 

[neotrotsky]

Whoa, this community is really educating me and helping me about the technicalities. Thanks a lot guys! Looks like i need to consider that too. as of now, yes we're about to purchase the X32!
We might not use the full of it for now, but eventually we will. 32 to inputs, good sounding mixer and 16 auxiliary outs... who doesnt like it? i think a mixer like that is just so flexible. I guess we'll look for a sound engineer for now to evaluate the place. About taking pictures of our equipment and the area of our church, i will post it as soon as i have it.

For now, if possible can you guys suggest somebody or yourself in my area(Houston) who can help me with this? we badly need a real sound engineer who can setup and train.

So, without taking into consideration factors such as:

-Capacity of the house
-Budget of the congregation vs. actual operation costs
-talent and composition of talent
-Composition of materials in the hall in reference to their acoustic properties
-Size and dimensions of the venue in question
-Orientation of the audience in regards to the talent on stage
-Application outside of FOH use for the system

.... You have determined that you *need* a Behringer x32 console. Pardon me for speaking out of turn, but the "reasons" you give pretty much sound like marketing campaign talking points from Behringer, and not in regards to any assessment to the venue you are actually going to be using it in. From my professional experience, VERY few houses of worship require a 32 channel console week to week with full digital function, especially since houses of worship operate with volunteer staff who have very little if any education in show production, audio engineering or mastering. You pithily ask "Who doesn't like it" in reference to the console, being the only component of what you seem to be working towards of a highly complex system that may be out of your bounds. Well, this audio engineer here sure would not spend thousands on a Behringer without knowing what the full application of the system will be and the venue it will be in. Then again, Behringer has a dead reputation in pro audio at best and a joke at worst... but admittedly their sales department and marketing are hard at work trying to convince those not familiar with their blunders of the past otherwise. Many are willing to give them another chance... I'll give them another couple of years before even taking that road again. But that comes from personal experience and the desire to build the best system with the least risk and the most reliability and ease of use/ease of repair in the long term. And, that is a professional "opinion". Others disagree, others agree. That's another aspect of designing a system that makes things very complex. And, to sort out what works for your venue takes time and a lot of collated data.

But, as many have pressed to try to help you not make any missteps, you haven't even presented data that could help determine if you even NEED a digital board, much less the amount of coverage, speakers, power or treatment the room may need. Have you factored room treatment in your budget? I would assume not since you keep going on about the shiny audio console when the room may be a disaster for sound without major treatment work to help it get the most out of whatever system you put in. How about flexibility for talent coming in? Are you even going to have any other talent than the house band? What about power, as in actual 110/220? Have you even determined if you house wiring is even up to spec for a system? You may have ground issues or other clean power issues that could ruin the install of a good system due to faulty or inadequate wiring which could sound horrible at best, and be dangerous and possibly deadly at worst.

I'm not trying to be a know it all... far from it! I don't know your qualifications or background and you may be the perfect person for the job setting up their new system. But there are A LOT of unanswered questions that need to be addressed before one bit of patch cable is even purchased. For a *true* high end system, you could be spending anywhere from $500 to $20,000 to get the venue up to spec acoustically and electrically before you can even get to talking about what kind of gear to use.

There are many well-experienced people on here who are trying to help, and they are all saying the same thing: Brand A or Brand B isn't going to give you an out of the box perfect sound. It simply ins't that easy, and they all would love to save you headache and money. I would listen.

 

[THORNSZ]

We just need a good mixer to replace our current dying old eurodesk. We may not use the X32's full potential but eventually we will. We just want to get a good digital one for now. and besides it's only a mixer, not an overkill speaker. So what do you think should i do? we're currently raising funds for it at the moment. Why not for the X32? What should i consider besides the venue?

 

[bishopthomas]

I am of the mentality of "buy once cry once." This is a concept that churches seemingly have never heard of. It's so typical of a house of worship (any group, really, but I've found the HOW group to be especially bad) to buy only for their immediate needs. While I agree that you should assess what your current needs are and ensure that you make a purchase that will meet those specific needs, I think that it's irresponsible to only think in the short term. I think you'll be quite happy with this mixer (as long as you realize the side effects of switching to digital) and it will PROBABLY serve your needs for a long time, in any space. On the other hand, it was touched upon by someone but I want to reinforce it: If your new project can absorb the cost of the mixer then think about holding off if at all possible. If you're building a new structure then a $3000 mixer will be NOTHING compared to everything else involved. I'm not saying that you should sneak it in, but if you're installing a completely new sound system in a completely new building then there's no reason why this mixer wouldn't be part of that expense. Trust me, it will be easier to come up with the money and justify buying a new mixer to the staff and/or congregation if it's going directly into this new space. I was a TD at a large baptist church for a few years and I know how these things work.

 

[THORNSZ]

I am of the mentality of "buy once cry once." This is a concept that churches seemingly have never heard of. It's so typical of a house of worship (any group, really, but I've found the HOW group to be especially bad) to buy only for their immediate needs. While I agree that you should assess what your current needs are and ensure that you make a purchase that will meet those specific needs, I think that it's irresponsible to only think in the short term. I think you'll be quite happy with this mixer (as long as you realize the side effects of switching to digital) and it will PROBABLY serve your needs for a long time, in any space. On the other hand, it was touched upon by someone but I want to reinforce it: If your new project can absorb the cost of the mixer then think about holding off if at all possible. If you're building a new structure then a $3000 mixer will be NOTHING compared to everything else involved. I'm not saying that you should sneak it in, but if you're installing a completely new sound system in a completely new building then there's no reason why this mixer wouldn't be part of that expense. Trust me, it will be easier to come up with the money and justify buying a new mixer to the staff and/or congregation if it's going directly into this new space. I was a TD at a large baptist church for a few years and I know how these things work.

How will be the X32 be NOTHING on the new building? i dont really get it! its just a mixer, not a speaker. How will the new space affect the mixer? you could always change it again and fit it according to the area and its needs. We're getting this X32 knowing that we could use it now and eventually on our new space. i still dont get it why you guys are against this.

 

[bishopthomas]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first sentence. Why would you want to "change it again?" I don't think the people paying for this mixer would appreciate this attitude. I'm not saying I'm against it, I actually thought I made it VERY clear that it's almost certainly a good idea. I was just trying to tell you that it might be easier to come up with (and justify) the funds if you roll it into the new building capital expense. Quite honestly, though, at this point I kind of feel that you are just looking for a new toy to play with and looking for our approval. I think it's a spectacular idea to wait for this new hire to come in before you stick him/her on a console that he/she may not want to use or be comfortable on. Who knows, maybe this new person already has a Digico console and would stick it in the church just to have a home for it.

Hmmm. I think you need to re-read my post with a different attitude.

 

[THORNSZ]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say in the first sentence. Why would you want to "change it again?" I don't think the people paying for this mixer would appreciate this attitude. I'm not saying I'm against it, I actually thought I made it VERY clear that it's almost certainly a good idea. I was just trying to tell you that it might be easier to come up with (and justify) the funds if you roll it into the new building capital expense. Quite honestly, though, at this point I kind of feel that you are just looking for a new toy to play with and looking for our approval. I think it's a spectacular idea to wait for this new hire to come in before you stick him/her on a console that he/she may not want to use or be comfortable on. Who knows, maybe this new person already has a Digico console and would stick it in the church just to have a home for it.

Hmmm. I think you need to re-read my post with a different attitude.

Hahaha i am definitely calm on reading your post, i'm not just pointing this out to you my friend. When i said "change it again" i meant tweaking it according to the new church's place from the present one. Another factor that made me into the X32 is that it is one of the cheapest reliable digital mixers on the market besides the Presonus Studio Live. I already made a thread about its comparison and it came out that the X32 is better. Price and quality wise. "at this point I kind of feel that you are just looking for a new toy to play with and looking for our approva" besides that it is our need, i sort of agree on that statement . If ever we purchase this Mixer, this will prolly my first digital mixer encounter. gosh Digico would be a blast! haha

 

[museav]

Perhaps it simply boils down to making purchases you want versus making purchases to support a plan. Most houses of worship find it beneficial to first develop a plan for how media technology fits into their overall vision. What is its role, how can it support the overall goals and so on. Once the general goals and purpose for any media technology are defined then that can be used as a guideline for determining the actual technical requirements. What technology is involved, what specific requirements are defined, etc. Once you have that then you can start looking at the actual technical system solutions that may be appropriate to fulfill those requirements and goals. And finally, once you have developed the general system concepts you can look at specific products that may support the concept defined. If you go the other direction with selecting equipment first then in the end the equipment selected may end up limiting or not supporting the overall goals.

Using a car analogy, you could go to a dealership and buy whatever grabs your attention that day or you could ask people online what car to purchase and get a bunch of responses based on different situations and preferences. But you probably want to avoid buying a car that is too small for your family or getting something that doesn't fit in the garage or that your spouse can't drive or that can't tow the boat or trailer you already have. What most people would do is determine what they need and want from a car before they go shopping or asking for input from others. The same general idea seems to apply here.

 

[rwhealey]

I would spend the money you raise on an acoustical consultant to design a sound system you can buy in phases. An acoustical consultant works with you and has no agenda for you to buy product, unlike a contractor or a manufacture salesman (not that there aren't honest contractors and salesmen out there - but you really need to trust who you're hiring). You will end up with a much better sound system in the end, even if you have to spend a little more time doing it!

There are some great consultants in Texas: http://www.ncac.com/directory.php?state=TX

 

[THORNSZ]

Using a car analogy, you could go to a dealership and buy whatever grabs your attention that day or you could ask people online what car to purchase and get a bunch of responses based on different situations and preferences. But you probably want to avoid buying a car that is too small for your family or getting something that doesn't fit in the garage or that your spouse can't drive or that can't tow the boat or trailer you already have. What most people would do is determine what they need and want from a car before they go shopping or asking for input from others. The same general idea seems to apply here.

So basically you're saying that the mixer might be too small for our needs? Just to give you an idea, our church isn't that big yet. On Sundays we usually have people ranging around 60-100+ regularly.
Here is a rough estimate of the dimension of our church area, this may not be accurate but here is it: 60-100 ft distance from stage to the sound booth X 100-120 ft wide. Our place isnt that proportioned, as you can see the stage is located at the corner that means more audience space of the left side. so whenever we'll purchase the x32, s16,p16 ,etc i'm planning of having all the instruments direct in and the drums be miced up, of course isolate it on a drum cage too!

I would spend the money you raise on an acoustical consultant to design a sound system you can buy in phases. An acoustical consultant works with you and has no agenda for you to buy product, unlike a contractor or a manufacture salesman (not that there aren't honest contractors and salesmen out there - but you really need to trust who you're hiring). You will end up with a much better sound system in the end, even if you have to spend a little more time doing it!

There are some great consultants in Texas: NCAC : Directory

Thanks for pointing that out! currently check on that link that you gave me.

 

[bishopthomas]

What in the world does the size of your space have to do with what your qualifications of a mixer are? I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but you REALLY need to hire a consultant. Just in your comment about plugging "all the instruments direct in" tells me that you're not even familiar with the gear that you are so dead set on purchasing. Please take some responsibility for the things that you are using OTHER PEOPLE'S money to buy and either learn a ton of information in a short period of time or hire someone who already has this knowledge.

 

[temper]

Thornsz, thanks for posting the picture and rough specs for the building. Is this your current place or new place? If it is not your new space, can you post dimensions and plans? And a timeline of when you would be in the space? Can you also post your churches annual budget amount?

So I think we are at least making a little progress here. It seems like there are bunch of things in limbo at the moment. First is that the current mixer is dying and you need a new one. If that's the case, then you need to replace it. You could consider a small analog desk if this truly a temporary desk.

Btw, is this currently a portable church or do you leave it set up?

So, I'd recommend you find a sound engineer in Houston. In the mean time, I wouldn't spend much money on the current gear and focus on trouble areas. If your mixer is dying, try finding a temporary used or new small analog one like one of the Allen and Heath ones. If you don't have a set of graphic eps and know how to use them, that's the next step I would try. After that, I'd just save the money, time and effort specing a new system for the new space with the help of a consultant.

I'd also suggest a good electronic or hybrid drum set in a space that size. I have met very few people who can get an acoustic set tuned and miced and mixed properly in a room that size, and when I've seen it, it usually is with some decently expensive gear.

I'd also check your speakers and monitors for blown drivers.

Btw, it does make a difference in which mixer you buy for a new building. If you buy the mixer now and spec the rest of the system in 1-2 years, what happens if a differnt type of digital snake would make more sense? What happens if you want to get a personal monitor mixer system like Aviom but it doesn't interface digitally with the x32? Have you seen the A&H gld80 system? But, the biggest thing in the digital sound world is that it's just getting started, so the longer you push off getting a system, the more and better the options will be.

I just went through this with my church and decided to get a temporary analog mixer until we see how things play out (the aux pots on the mixer went out and it was not worth repairing). We don't have a pressing need to get into a digital mixer right now, so we might as well wait until we need something more permanent.

All this to say, x32 may not be a bad mixer, but just be cautious thinking it will fit right into a new system speced in the future. It very well may not.

Good luck!

 

[THORNSZ]

What in the world does the size of your space have to do with what your qualifications of a mixer are? I'm sorry to put it so bluntly but you REALLY need to hire a consultant. Just in your comment about plugging "all the instruments direct in" tells me that you're not even familiar with the gear that you are so dead set on purchasing. Please take some responsibility for the things that you are using OTHER PEOPLE'S money to buy and either learn a ton of information in a short period of time or hire someone who already has this knowledge.

Well, the people above are mentioning stuffs like the dimension... they're saying that it might not be enough. plus the direct in? of course it instrument>direct box> mixer

Thornsz, thanks for posting the picture and rough specs for the building. Is this your current place or new place? If it is not your new space, can you post dimensions and plans? And a timeline of when you would be in the space? Can you also post your churches annual budget amount?

So I think we are at least making a little progress here. It seems like there are bunch of things in limbo at the moment. First is that the current mixer is dying and you need a new one. If that's the case, then you need to replace it. You could consider a small analog desk if this truly a temporary desk.

Btw, is this currently a portable church or do you leave it set up?

So, I'd recommend you find a sound engineer in Houston. In the mean time, I wouldn't spend much money on the current gear and focus on trouble areas. If your mixer is dying, try finding a temporary used or new small analog one like one of the Allen and Heath ones. If you don't have a set of graphic eps and know how to use them, that's the next step I would try. After that, I'd just save the money, time and effort specing a new system for the new space with the help of a consultant.

I'd also suggest a good electronic or hybrid drum set in a space that size. I have met very few people who can get an acoustic set tuned and miced and mixed properly in a room that size, and when I've seen it, it usually is with some decently expensive gear.

I'd also check your speakers and monitors for blown drivers.

Btw, it does make a difference in which mixer you buy for a new building. If you buy the mixer now and spec the rest of the system in 1-2 years, what happens if a differnt type of digital snake would make more sense? What happens if you want to get a personal monitor mixer system like Aviom but it doesn't interface digitally with the x32? Have you seen the A&H gld80 system? But, the biggest thing in the digital sound world is that it's just getting started, so the longer you push off getting a system, the more and better the options will be.

I just went through this with my church and decided to get a temporary analog mixer until we see how things play out (the aux pots on the mixer went out and it was not worth repairing). We don't have a pressing need to get into a digital mixer right now, so we might as well wait until we need something more permanent.

All this to say, x32 may not be a bad mixer, but just be cautious thinking it will fit right into a new system speced in the future. It very well may not.

Good luck!

This is our current space. Well for now, getting a decent temporary mixer is still gonna cost much. like what you said allen and heat mixers, its gonna cost $2k and above depending on the spec. A&H gld80? thats 11 grand bro! thats freakin expensive! Behringer X32 only cost $3k!our church cant afford that for now... Aviom?? yup we're planning on getting some personal mixers/monitors too to get rid of the amps. I'm glad behringer has their o budget version of it and it's pretty reliable too! it's the Behringer powerplay p16-m. Its have the price of the aviom personal mixer plus it is very compatible with the mixer that we desired which is the Behringer X32. Mixer>s16 digital snake>P16 Distributor > to the personal mixer/monitor P16-m. Very cost efficient! and about our drums? it's pretty decent too! Grestch renown loaded with Zildjian Ks! On the setting we have right now, i'm surprised that its not that loud than how it suppose to be.
We just need to isolate the drums with a cage and close mic them for now to have more control with it.

Our place's dimension: 60-100 ft distance from stage to the sound booth X 100+ ft wide

 

[museav]

So basically you're saying that the mixer might be too small for our needs? Just to give you an idea, our church isn't that big yet. On Sundays we usually have people ranging around 60-100+ regularly.
Here is a rough estimate of the dimension of our church area, this may not be accurate but here is it: 60-100 ft distance from stage to the sound booth X 100-120 ft wide. Our place isnt that proportioned, as you can see the stage is located at the corner that means more audience space of the left side. so whenever we'll purchase the x32, s16,p16 ,etc i'm planning of having all the instruments direct in and the drums be miced up, of course isolate it on a drum cage too!

You seem to be missing the point. We don't know if the mixer you propose if too small, too big or just right (insert Goldilocks joke of your choice) and it is probably not going to depend on the number of attendees or the size of the space. How did you determine what you need or want from a mixer and how it fits into any 'bigger picture'? How many and what types of inputs and outputs does the mixer need to support and could that change with the new venue? What processing and effects should it provide? How is the connectivity of the mixer to the stage and speakers being handled? Might the money you spend now on a mixer affect the budget you have for the rest of the system for the new venue?

As far as NCAC, acoustical consultants address acoustics and may or may not address electroacoustics - look through the NCAC membership and you will find firms who do not offer consulting on audio systems or that have limited experience with house of worship applications. And while I would recommend most of the NCAC members, membership is purely voluntary and it is difficult to tie qualifications in acoustics down to specific degrees, licenses, certifications, etc, thus NCAC has always struggled with membership qualifications. As a result there are many qualified acoustical and electroacoustical consultants who are not NCAC members.

Some of the NCAC members listings are also inaccurate. For example, Pelton Marsh Kinsella that is listed in the link provided no longer exists. The contact listed, David Marsh, formed a new company with Gary Kinsella almost four years ago as Kinsella-Marsh Group kinsella-marsh and KMG is a NCAC member but with Gary Kinsella as the contact and listed for Florida rather than Texas (see http://www.ncac.com/documents/NCACDirectory_002.pdf).

 

[bishopthomas]

Well, the people above are mentioning stuffs like the dimension... they're saying that it might not be enough. plus the direct in? of course it instrument>direct box> mixer

Well, anyone trying to make a connection between size of your space and mixer requirements are clueless. Part of the problem of the Internet; the only way to filter out the crap is by knowing what is crap. And I know that that's crap.

Okay, by "direct in" you mean using a DI between the instrument and console. I'm only going off the information you have provided, another problem with the Internet.

I don't agree that you should buy something for in the meantime. As I stated above, if your mixer is no longer usable then you need a replacement. The X32 will probably be a good choice for the new space. And as you know, a replacement analog mixer is going to cost almost what the X32 does, so you might as well go ahead and buy it. If by some chance you need something different for the new space you could sell the X32, although I know how difficult it is to make these kinds of transactions when you're involved in church audio.

I just looked at the thread title and read your first post and was reminded that you were looking for PA suggestions. It seems like this thread got morphed into a discussion about whether or not you should buy the X32. Was your original question answered or are you putting the PA discussion on hold for now? While a mixer is fairly straight forward in regards to making a decision, the PA itself is not and I would definitely recommend hiring in a consultant. But, as Brad said, an acoustical designer is (as the name suggests) really only concerned with the "sound" of the space. They will be assessing where acoustical treatment should be placed in an existing space, and can be more involved with the architectural layout of a new design. If that's what you need for the new building by all means give one a call, but I would suggest hiring someone who actually does more of systems design and integration.

 

[gafftaper]

Another factor that made me into the X32 is that it is one of the cheapest reliable digital mixers on the market besides the Presonus Studio Live. I already made a thread about its comparison and it came out that the X32 is better. Price and quality wise.

Aviom?? yup we're planning on getting some personal mixers/monitors too to get rid of the amps. I'm glad behringer has their o budget version of it and it's pretty reliable too! it's the Behringer powerplay p16-m. Its have the price of the aviom personal mixer plus it is very compatible with the mixer that we desired which is the Behringer X32.

You are missing so many points.

1) Up to this point, Behringer has NEVER made ANYTHING that ANY professional audio engineer would consider reliable. Read that sentence again. Got it? Maybe you should read it one more time. The X32 has been out 6 months or so. It sounds surprisingly great, it runs great. But no one, except Behringer, is saying it's a long term reliable durable mixer. That is not enough time to declare something reliable. It might be, it might not. It may fall apart in two years (like your Behringer Eurodesk is doing). The X32 has all the features of a $10,000 mixer and they sell it for $3,000. How do they sell it that cheap? Are the just more generous than the other companies? No. Part of the reason is they bought Midas and are copying some of their own technology. But part of the reason MUST be that they are cutting corners somewhere on the quality of internal components. If it wasn't then Midas would have a $3,000 mixer too... but they don't. So where does the huge cut in cost come from? Did they cut a corner that means it will die in two years? We have no idea. People on the bleeding edge of technology are out there trying the X32. But anyone with a sense of history in this industry is going to wait a year or two to see how they handle road tours and how they last long term in permanent installations. So realize this, if you buy an X32 you are being a Guinea Pig for me. Thanks, I wouldn't touch one for at least 2 years after initial release, preferably 3 or 4.

2) You say that the X32 is better in quality than a Presonus. That's a shocking statement. Do you have any idea the history of garbage that Behringer has turned out? The long list of products that were flat out reverse engineered and coppied with cheaper parts? They even copied the spelling errors from another manufacturer's manual. There is a long history of lawsuits. If you read that previous thread, the only criticism of quality that I see of the Presonus is that it sounded a bit thin compared to the Behringer. Note that Bishop said both of them sound better than Yamaha... and Yamaha is pretty much the industry standard when it comes to big digital. So to his ear the X32 sounds better. You may not agree. With the rest of your gear, you may not be able to hear a difference. Heck you may like the sound of Yamaha better. The X32 is cheaper. The X32 may be a great console. But we simply do not know yet if it's reliable.

3) If you read closely the discussion of the X32 thread you will note that Footer is having a great experience with the X32. But he's also in a massive theater with a HUGE budget. He bought an X32 because to his facility, it's so cheap he can buy it from pocket change rather than deal with the months of paperwork of buying the $20,000 console he originally wanted. He's been surprised at how well it works and how good it sounds. But if it falls apart next year, he has a big enough budget that he can throw it out and buy a new console. To him, it was a quick fix bandage, so far it's working out well, but if it goes bad he's got the budget to toss it and get something else. Let facilities like that take the risk. Wait to hear how well they survive a road tour with a few bands.

All that aside, and I mean no insult here. But you just don't have the expertise to make this decision and we can't give you credible advice without being in your space, analyzing the acoustics, and looking at the rest of your gear. Buying a new console can be a meaningless act if you don't have quality amps and processing, your speakers are not properly positioned, and the entire system isn't designed to work together well. If you really think you'll be moving into a new facility soon I would look for a used mixer on Craig's list and buy that to get you through. When you move into the new space install a properly designed new system. Show your congregation that you are a good steward of how you spend their money.

 

[chieftfac]

Wow. Thank you everyone for the comments, very good reading. It has helped reinforced my thoughts, in that I have gone about my project of implementing a new sound system the correct way (abet a little too slow) at my performing Arts Center. It has taken me almost two years of talking to consultants, fellow professionals in the industry, reading opinions and renting different gear for band performances to find the best solution for the size of the hall, rider friendliness, and ease of use. Even then, I feel a little trepidation at spending $50k of someone else's money, when most likely in 2 years there will be cheaper solutions that will match the quality or even exceed it. The only advice I can give is slow down. Yes, it's taken me two years to decide the the M7-CL 48 (ES) really is the best fit for our venue, but it was a long road getting there. I know it is dependable and fits my needs the best. As posted above, unless you have got funding to burn, YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE ON THE BLEEDING EDGE OF TECHNOLOGY. Just because something is shiny and new does not mean that it is the best equipment out there or the best fit for your needs. Don't listen to the advertising hype from a dealer. Go out and see other brands in use, rent one first. Talk to people, gather info. then make your decision. You are buying the latest new computer, and with that there are going to be bugs, always.

 

[temper]

THORNSZ, you can buy an A&H zed24 for $600 new all day long. Less, used off ebay. You can get a zed428 for $1000 used usually. My guess is that you can get comparable soundcraft boards for the same. How many channels and sends do you realistically need at the moment before you get a new building? When you get a new building, will you need a smaller mixer for portable events or a youth room?

Just to build on gafftaper's point about behringer, there is not one audio related product that I have used from them that I have truly liked. Some of it is horrible, some of it sounds horrible, and all of it feels and is built super cheap. I have regretted every behringer purchase I and others have made, and the only piece of audio related gear that I am somewhat happy with is their cable tester, and even then the jacks are just not high quality at all - the xlr jacks catch and you have to rip the cable out. So, the cable may have worked when connected to the tester, but you never know if you've broken it while getting it unhooked!

I too thought about the x32, and I decided to pass. While they acquired midas, maybe they are changing their ways as to quality construction, but I'm going to have to see it to believe it. And that means, at least 5 years of use on an x32. Just wait until one of those motorized faders decides to tank, and it's not going to be pretty. Look, I'm not a typical behringer hater just because of their questionable business practices - that's a different story. I've just not had good luck with their gear and there has always been a nagging regret every time I use a piece of audio gear from them. Let's hope their digital stuff is different.

Have you seen DBX's new snake and personal monitoring system? It might be interesting to see who comes out with a mixer to interface directly with that line.

Most of all, have any of your sound people mixed on a digital mixer? It's a completely different experience for someone volunteering for sound once every few weeks. (Please don't tell me your church has the same person doing sound every week - if that's the case, burn out, burn out, burn out.) I've heard of several churches that replaced their analog mixers with digital mixers and quickly lost all their volunteers because they didn't want to learn something new. I'm not saying that's how it should be, but yet another thing to make this simple decision more complicated for you.

 

[gafftaper]

Congratulations chieftfac, I think you have done it exactly the right way. Your patience and diligence will pay off and you will have a system that sounds fantastic and truly meets your needs.