Good PA brands and models for a church

[THORNSZ]

All that aside, and I mean no insult here. But you just don't have the expertise to make this decision and we can't give you credible advice without being in your space, analyzing the acoustics, and looking at the rest of your gear. Buying a new console can be a meaningless act if you don't have quality amps and processing, your speakers are not properly positioned, and the entire system isn't designed to work together well. If you really think you'll be moving into a new facility soon I would look for a used mixer on Craig's list and buy that to get you through. When you move into the new space install a properly designed new system. Show your congregation that you are a good steward of how you spend their money.

that totally makes sense now! So what do you think should i do for now to save the situation? we need to replace the mixer asap, good decent mixer from craiglist is gonna cost us much money too! Do you think we should get the Presonus 32 studiolive instead maybe? we're are looking for a mixer that we can use now and eventually on the new building. What do you think is a good flexible mixer in that price range?

 

[gafftaper]

If I were you I would either get a used console or something like that Allen and Heath Zed24 just suggested... perhaps something Yamaha, Soundcraft, or Mackie. There are a lot of great analog consoles out there that are way better than your current Eurodesk that you can pick up for $600-$1000. Wait until you do the big building upgrade and then get a pro consultant to design an entire system for that new church and do it right from the start no guessing. The console you are buying now can become a backup desk, a stage monitor desk, or can be for the youth room in the new facility (every large church youth group wants a band with their own sound gear in their own service).

I think it's a very foolish use of your congregation's money to buy a mixer now that you plan to use in a new building someday without knowing every detail of that new facility's needs. You can spend a lot of money on something that once you get there you say, "Yeah it's working, but I wish it could______" and now we are stuck with it. So then you have a $10,000 console you don't like because it doesn't meet all the needs of the future system. If nothing else you can buy that $600-$1000 console now and then sell it on Craigslist and get half your money back out of it when you do the big building upgrade.

...and for the sake of all that is good in the world, STOP GOING TO GUITAR CENTER!!!! They don't know anything! You live in Houston there must be many great theater dealers in that area that can give you solid advice and sell you a quality product. Can anyone recommend a good dealer in Houston for him? Any decent dealer will send a sales person out to your space to help you evaluate your needs and give you a price quote.

 

[THORNSZ]

cool, i'll try to consider that and let see what we can do... Allen and heath Zed is pretty decent too! I'm thinking of a Peavey 24FX II, Mackie VLZ, Yamaha MG, or a soundcraft MG/GB maybe?


off topic:
Looks like i found another digital mixer with that price range. The Soundcraft Si Expression 32! It's pretty much more reliable than the behringer since Soundcraft is known for making industry standard mixers too! but i'm not sure if it's capable for distributing signals for Aviom,etc... Looks like the Si expression is more like a Studiolive Semi analog digital mixer

 

[JLNorthGA]

behringer, there is not one audio related product that I have used from them that I have truly liked. Some of it is horrible, some of it sounds horrible, and all of it feels and is built super cheap. I have regretted every behringer purchase I and others have made, and the only piece of audio related gear that I am somewhat happy with is their cable tester, and even then the jacks are just not high quality at all - the xlr jacks catch and you have to rip the cable out.

I have one positive comment to make about Behringer. Their Ultra DI box (DI20) is actually pretty good. We bought them because they were inexpensive. They've held up surprisingly well. The sound is reasonable. The connections are good and solid - and I'm not going to sweat it if it gets stepped on, broken or stolen.

 

[gafftaper]

cool, i'll try to consider that and let see what we can do... Allen and heath Zed is pretty decent too! I'm thinking of a Peavey 24FX II, Mackie VLZ, Yamaha MG, or a soundcraft MG/GB maybe?

I love Allen and Heath consoles. We bought a 16 channel Yamaha MG for my kids' school last year and it's a great little board. Soundcraft also makes excellent products, even in their lower priced product lines, they will serve you well for many years. Mackie is pretty good, but they aren't the indestructible but reasonably priced products they used to be. Some of the guys here have run into some serious quality control concerns recently with Mackie. I wouldn't buy Peavy, they are better than Behringer, but not that much better.

If you can't find a good dealer locally contact CB members Esoteric or BillESC (I would call both). Tell them exactly what you do with your existing system and they will give you a price on a product that they sell. Esoteric is up in Dallas, maybe he'll have a reason to come visit you.

 

[THORNSZ]

thanks man! i'll surely will contact esoteric! Hey, while i was scanning some mixers and i found this Soundcraft Si Expression! it's pretty cost much a bit than the behringer but i believe it's more reliable since it is made by soundcraft. Duh, we all know mixers are soundcraft's expertise. its not out yet but what do you think? it might be an option in the future. I'm currently researching stuff about it.

By the way, who is esoteric? can you give me their link or contact info instead?

 

[Koopdaddy]

The X32 has all the features of a $10,000 mixer and they sell it for $3,000. How do they sell it that cheap? Are the just more generous than the other companies? No. Part of the reason is they bought Midas and are copying some of their own technology. But part of the reason MUST be that they are cutting corners somewhere on the quality of internal components.

Of course that assumes that the $10k mixer actually cost more than the x32 to produce, which is much less than people might think.

Part of the reason Behringer can sell for less is that they own the manufacturing process...which is where they save a good bunch.

Heck the $40k mixers may not really cost that much more than these mixers. You are paying for the name, the engineering skills, features, etc.

I'm not saying that behringer did not make design choices based on price. They surely did . But one cannot simply say that they cut more corners than brand x mixer based simply on price without knowing the actual manufacturing costs.

Bu I do agree that the Op really needs to stop and do this the right way, regardless of which brand console they get. The right mixer and system for them may not be anything suggested in this thread. If the church leadership is wise they will see the value of hiring a professional that can walk then through this.

Jared

 

[gafftaper]

If you send a private message to Esoteric you'll get him. Or Mike if you're reading this send Thornsz your contact info.

Allen and Heath is working on a new digital console line as well.

But stay focused, buy a console now for less than $1000 that meets your current needs. Save your big money for a complete system, which is designed by a professional, to work together perfectly in the new sanctuary. And don't buy new speakers now either. There's nothing wrong with your current ones. Wait for the new space and put in a set that will match the acoustics of the new sanctuary and match perfectly with your amps, dsp, and subs. You have no idea what the correct combination will be until the new sanctuary is built. Anything you buy now is just a guess towards what will work and you are in all likelihood throwing money away.

 

[DuckJordan]

Not to mention Midas wasn't picked up by the music group until after the manufacture of the X32 so saying they copied the Midas technology is false. Where they are saving is in the manufacturing and also on the sheer volume they are producing and selling. If it takes Midas 50k consoles to start making a profit, X32 sells 250k and makes the same profit. Difference is volume of consoles. Not to mention they don't have the quality control in the parts. They didn't spend $10k on designing the fader system. nor did they spend $40k in motherboard dev. They wen't cheap with most of the parts in the console and thats how they can sell it at $5k less than the competitor due to not having the upfront cost of materials.

 

[bishopthomas]

I haven't used the Expression but I do own an SI Compact 32. I recently had the option of selling it for a little less than the cost of a pair of X32's. I still have it. I did an AB comparison of strictly the sound quality of the SI Compact and the X32 and the Soundcraft was slightly better. It wasn't a huge difference but multiply the minor improvement by the number of channels and it could be significant. Besides sound quality I also have other variables to think about, including name recognition (the SI isn't going to meet any riders but it will still set myself apart from other companies with Behringer gear), ease of layout, etc.

You didn't answer the question of how many input channels and output busses you actually need at the moment. That is a big determining factor of whether you should get something inexpensive as a temporary fix or go ahead and get whatever will transition to the new facility.

 

[THORNSZ]

You didn't answer the question of how many input channels and output busses you actually need at the moment. That is a big determining factor of whether you should get something inexpensive as a temporary fix or go ahead and get whatever will transition to the new facility.

Well yeah i agree! Soundcraft is one of the prestige companies who makes industry standard mixers, so pretty much I trust them. I was also so surprised on how user friendly the the Si Compact is according to the video demonstrations on Youtube. When it comes to reliability, what do you think is better? the Studiolive or the x32?

To answer your question, i need enough channel inputs to control all the instruments and vocals. 7-8 Mics for the drums, 2 electric guitars - 1 acoustic - 1 bass line ins, 2 Synths, 1 Laptop Audio out for the midi controller, 1 Sax mic, 5-8 Singer mics, and 1 preacher mic, thats 30 all in all!!! i guess we need a 32 channel mixer. As far as number of busses is concerned, 6 bus would be fine i guess. A three grand 32 channels mixer would be good for temporary use right, since we can always use them as the youth's Mixer or as a monitor mixer in the future... maybe? i dunno why i'm just so skeptical of getting a cheap mixer. We're currently using an old vintage $500 24 channels Behringer Eurodesk(the first issue) mixer and i totally hate it! It just doesnt sound right plus the LOUD huss is killing me and the mic preamps are really bad. Regardless of that, it only has 2 Aux outs which sucks a lot. More aux outs, the better!

 

[temper]

Do you run in ears or wedges on stage? If wedges, do you run an eq on each channel, and if so, what type?

From my count, you are putting 12-15 people on stage, is that right? Are you currently micing your drums? I didn't see mics in your picture you posted. I'll just say it again, try to audition a good electronic or hybrid kit for a couple of sundays, you might make life easier on everyone and it might end up sounding better. What setup are you currently using to mic the drum kit (mics, comps, gates, delays, effects, etc)? I'm only bringing this up because a lot times people know something is wrong with the sound and they think it's the desk, or the amps, or the speakers, but there are lots of other variables like how to set up and mic a drum kit, how many performers and monitors on stage, etc. Tweaking those can result in much better sound without any money spent. And, I've found the drum kit is the single hardest thing to get right for most churches.

Anyway, you made a comment how you don't trust the small analog mixers because the eurodesk you have sucks. Well, try a real mixer! You might be surprised that the eq stages on a real mixer actually work properly, and the preamps don't sound like complete garbage.

I'd personally take Mackie mixers out of the equation, just not a huge fan when you can get a comparable A&H or Soundcraft, but many people do have success with them.

 

[neotrotsky]

I am one of those Mackie guys simply because the older units can be thrown off of a building and still function, they have plenty of input options and the price is right. Are they the most pristine for studio? No, but I do live sound and durability, consistency and versatility are what I desire. Mackies have never done me wrong, except for the failure once of a control ribbion on a 1604VLZ Pro (one of their flaws).

Two things I notice that need to be shook off of this plan:
- This obsession with digital consoles. I personally don't find anything unusual about your setup that requires a digital console. Everything that you described can be done quickly and effectively with an analog console. Heck, I do nearly the same thing every week with two of my religious clients: One on an A&H Zed24 and the other on a Mackie 24.4.4 VLZ Pro. Both events go flawlessly and are easy to manage. Each board gives you plenty of aux sends for monitor and offboard processing routing and both are durable and easy to work on for anyone with the proper training. If you cannot mix a band of that size on an analog console, then you will do WORSE on a digital console. Digital consoles, while they have all the flashy bits and features, still have HORRENDOUS workflow compared to analog consoles.

-Do you really need 7-8 mics for the drums? Again, we go back to what the size of the house is. On my worship groups, I run 3-5, usually 3. A pair of excellent overheads and a solid kick mic make all the difference in the world. If you are using one of those Guitar Center mic packs, you'd be surprised what a good quality set of mics can do to reduce the number of channels you need. Most my my traps run Shure SM81 overheads X/Y, Either a Beta58 or AKG D112 for kick (depending on which contract) and possibly a 57 on snare. Run a gate on the oveheads to keep the punch out of them and do NOT compress the hell out of the kick. Build the gain on it with plenty of headroom and if need be, lean on your preamps. I get plenty of clarity out of a 400-500 seat house and good isolation. If you are REALLY focused on isolation, get a lexan drum shield. You can trim that mic allotment in half and you can even run the monitor mix cooler to the drummer because they can actually hear themselves and not have to deal with bleed.

 

[bishopthomas]

Your complaints are very vague and not necessarily indicative of a "failing" console. There could be any number of things contributing to this "huss" and just because you hate it doesn't really tell us anything. Sure, the preamps aren't the best in the world, but they're probably not the weakest link in your signal chain. Honestly, I feel like you have read online that Behringer preamps suck and now you have that in your mind. What do you mean by "really bad?" Describe what you don't like about them and what you would like to hear. Is it a certain frequency or range that you feel is being accentuated by the preamps? If so, what are those frequencies? Words like "harsh" and "brittle" are words you read on the internet. If you can't be specific in what you don't like how can you determine what you want to improve? You say "the more the better" in regards to aux outs. What are your plans for these other aux sends?

The reliability or StudioLive vs X32 is hard to say at this point. I haven't seen an X32 fail yet but I had to send in my 16.4.2 for a couple of minor repairs. I bought the Studiolive used and it's older than the Behringer so it's really not a fair comparison. Time will tell about the road worthiness of the X32 but I have a feeling we'll see a huge improvement over their other products.