Good use of frost.

SteveB

Well-Known Member
Thought I'd share something learned today from a road dance LD.

The company was a Russian Swan Lake, with a US LD. His plot specified Rosco R119 in about every ellipsoidal.

The plot was an adaptation I did from the tour plot, using 190 static fixtures that were a mix of Source 4 Pars (48) plus Source 4 19 &26's (FOH), S4 25/50 zooms (most everywhere), Shakespeare 30 & 40 degrees on the ladders (24 units used), Altman 4.5" zooms in booms (24 units.), for a total of 125 units needing frost.

The LD told me that he'd found that if he focuses every ellipsoidal to a hard shutter cut, which can be different then a hard beam edge and which is unit/manufacturer dependent, they can then specify a R119 to get the same soft edge in every house, no matter which unit or manufacturer is used

Lesson learned.

Note that it was about 18 sheets equivalent of frost at about $7.50 per sheet, so around $150.
 
When this topic came up before, someone (you know who you are) stated they thought it was the mark of a lazy designer. I disagree, having found it much faster and consistent to focus everything sharp and then add R114/119/132, depending on the degree of softness desired. SteveB, didn't you once tell of a plan that back-fired--putting the diffusion in a separate frame in every fixture? (EDIT: See post#9 below.)
 
Last edited:
I've always been a fan of this, only with 132. When focusing with multiple people its a pain to get a consistent fuzz, and some units like old 36s just never want to play nice!
 
I always focus sharp to a shutter and then add frost when needed (when financially viable). I know a lot of LDs that do it too. When I was the ME of a LORT house, we just had tons of R132 and R119 in stock that had built up over the years so we rarely had to buy it. It lasts a good long time.

-Tim
 
I've always been a fan of this, only with 132. When focusing with multiple people its a pain to get a consistent fuzz, and some units like old 36s just never want to play nice!

I'm also a big fan of this (and know others who are). ESPECIALLY when working with older fixtures that are picky. A serious godsend with the fixtures in one of the venues I do a lot of work in as the inventory is VERY old.

Use 119 or 132 usually depending on the show.
 
I'm also a big fan of this (and know others who are). ESPECIALLY when working with older fixtures that are picky. A serious godsend with the fixtures in one of the venues I do a lot of work in as the inventory is VERY old.

Use 119 or 132 usually depending on the show.

A local LD always has in the note section "have extra cuts of 119 available at focus" just for that purpose. If a light is being finicky then we hard focus and drop one of those in.
 
A local LD always has in the note section "have extra cuts of 119 available at focus" just for that purpose. If a light is being finicky then we hard focus and drop one of those in.

The other handy thing to have on-hand is some sort of doughnut! Fixture being temperamental and cuts or gobos just won't cooperate... well you know.

At the venue I mentioned before, we always make sure the LD knows that there is plenty of 119/132 and doughnuts available. Especially after enough times that we've been focusing a show and the LD just could not seem to understand why the fixture is not cooperating. Gotta love fixtures that are twice your age, when some people expect them to all act like brand new, well maintained, source-4s or such.
Then again they do the job just fine for the most part.

I don't mind the old fixtures at all.
 
We had Paul Taylor in over the weekend, he actually did this with a lot of stuff. With color swaps, we also swapped in and out frost between pieces. We had Mark Morris in several months ago and it was frost in everything. We have probably 300 or so cuts of frost on hand... so its not a huge issue.

Now the real question is, do you stuff the frost in the frame during prep or do you do it in the air after the fixture is locked. Personally, I prefer to do it after... just slide it in the frame. That way you don't have to deal with pulling the color and such. I have had LD's nearly go to blows with me on that one though.
 
Most LD's I work with want to pull the color (and frost) to focus, so I'd put both in the same frame, especially if the LW says "L1xx+R132" or similar.

(Where's that thread about SteveB and his separate frames? Not finding it is annoying me.)
EDIT: Found it!:)
...FWIW, every back light and hi-side PAR had R114 added to the color. About every ellipsoidal had a mix of R132 or R119.

Thread diversion here:
The LD focused by first asking for the color to be pulled on the unit (ellipsoidals). He would then sharpen to hard beam edge, do cuts, then drop color and frost back in. We focused 125 units in 5 hrs., which for us is painful.
...
I generally see the more experienced touring LD's NOT automatically add diffusion to ellipsoidals - and cannot remember the time anyone asked for generic diffusion for a PAR, which had little to no discernible effect on the beam quality. Adding R132 or R119 or someone elses version, I understand, especially for some S4 36's and 19's, but I generally just run it soft and see what it looks like, having requested a lot of diffusion to be ready as needed. In any event, the original plot had R119 or R132 ADDED in every frame, as opposed to separate frames, which I changed in the cut list, wanting the option. It actually turned out to be a mistake when EVERY color frame on EVERY ellipsoidal was pulled to focus, requiring the electrician to restore 2 frames of color for every unit. ...
 
Last edited:
Around my house I keep about 200 > 250 6 1/4"cuts each of Rx-132 and Rx-119, the two most popular frosts with my regular crop of designers. Over time I've developed a stash of around 200 paper frames that the diffusion goes in loose, no staple or anything;
the paper frame then gets added as the final touch @ focus. The lack of a staple in the mix makes changing the diffusion back and forth a five minute task for two people, rather than who knows how long with a staple puller. Thus far the pressure from the original ( metal ) frame has kept the diffusion secure in all but the most extreme focus situations.
 
. Thus far the pressure from the original ( metal ) frame has kept the diffusion secure in all but the most extreme focus situations.

I'm confused as to why the diffusion would need to be kept secure, as most, if not all, units using 6 1/4" frames have gel frame clips. Additionally, even 6" square cuts have more than enough area in a 6 1/4" gel frame so that they shouldn't fall out. At my theater, we shove the frost and color behind top hats/ eye lashes in many of the units.
 
"I'm confused as to why the diffusion would need to be kept secure,"

" Mach 2 or standing still; good procedure is good procedure,mate."
Royal Navy fighter pilot late one night in Hong Kong
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I always use R312 in front light systems comprised of elipsoidals. Focus sharp-to-the-shutter to "get the most light" out of your fixutre. Drop R132 on the lens side of the gel to create an even wash. This works well in Source 4's or any leko. I don't use it in side light systems on a procenium stage because I'm not as concerned about even trasitions between instruments- its not as noticeable to the audience.
 
" Mach 2 or standing still; good procedure is good procedure,mate."
Royal Navy fighter pilot late one night in Hong Kong

.................

You've made it sound like the frost was falling out, which I am still confused as to how was that was happening.
 
I totally just pictured a Harrier with source-4s and other fixtures mounted on the wing-pods, flying at mach-2 to create pretty lights in the sky!!!

According to my nephew, a Marine Corp Major and Harrier pilot, the only time the Harrier exceeds the speed of sound is when "clean" and even then, only in a dive and at that, "it's not a happy plane".
 
On this particular event, the LD specified R119 for about every ellipsoidal in the original plot, which was also spec'd as S4's of assorted lens types, with our stuff being a mix of S4's fixed lens FOH, S4 zooms on the electrics and Boxes, Altman 4.5" zooms in the dance towers and Shakespeares on the Ladders, thus a hodgepodge of stuff. I thus usually take the request for diffusion with a grain of salt, being aware as a result of countless focuses, that frost is sometimes not needed, as certain units soften to about what they want anyway. I have enough R132 and R119 in stock for either type for every ellipsoidal in any case.

I'm also of the opinion that R119 is too diffuse for our FOH, where architectural elements interfere with a focus, thus am then fighting the flare from the diffusion, thus I stock R132 in the cove slots for as needed. When an LD asks for R119 in the Coves, I try to talk them out of it with good reasons, as ultimately I have to answer to our Artistic Director who does notice the ugly flare and will ask, and he's paying the bills.

I also will generally not, as a rule, add the diffusion to the frame of the specified color, adding it instead as a separate frame when needed (using paper frames for all but S4 Pars). It's a ****ed if you do/don't scenario, with many LD's (in my experience) having trouble "seeing" where the light and shutter cuts are, when there's a frost added. When you are attempting to focus all ellipsoidals as sharp edge or shutter, it's seemingly slows the process when the frost is included in the color as you end up removing the color AND frost, then restoring. Having a utility bag in the manlift bucket with a pile of R119 and R132 to simply add, has in my experience, been more efficient.

I also put a single paper fastener in all frames, except frost that's not stapled, as it makes it easier to manage the frames prior to placing colors in the units. I only use a single fastener as the event's are almost always a one-off.

For this past weekends event, the original plot indicated "L132+R119" as example, and since the hookup was in Lightwright, this means the cut ADDS to the color in the same frame, as opposed to "L132,R119", which has LW count it as separate cuts and usually indicates a separate frame for the frost, the difference being the Plus sign, or a Comma in the counting process. Possibly many folks don't pay attention to that little detail when creating an LW hookup. I ignored it at my peril, but the company ass't LD was OK with it, especially as she was weak at paying attention to when she was soft edging units on one electric, then adding R119 to same system units on a second electric, so given her confusion, not adding frost to the frame with color was the correct choice and in any event, I'm more then happy to explain the logic of my choice in prep'ing the plot to any visiting LD, should they get testy.

Again in this case the LD/SM/PM had perfect logic for the reason for diffusion in most ellipsoidals, that was in some cases thwarted by his weak assistant and as the assistant was doing the focus with the LD arriving much later.....
 
Last edited:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back