Microphones Grand Piano Mic

Hello,

I have been asked to Mic our grand piano for a performance that is coming up soon. I have done a lot of reading up about it, and was wondering if anyone could provide some advice. We have not budget to buy anything else, and we currently have lots of SM58's, a couple of PG58's and 2 Beyerdynamic MCE 86 II condenser mics.

Any tips on what configuration would be good? I realise that I will need to use 2 mic's in stereo, but wondering which combination would be best, and where the best placement might be for them?

Cheers
 
I generally would put one mic over the low strings and one mic over the high strings. I have never worked with the MCE 86's, but based on what I can tell online, I'm thinking the SM58's will give you the best sound for this.
 
I think the MCE's are designed more for Video recording, but I read somewhere that ideally they need to be condenser mics? I presume with the SM58's the idea would be to open the lid and just point 1 at the low end, and point 1 at the high end?
Condenser would be preferred, but this mic is designed to grab sound from far away, so it might not like being very close to a piano. Like I said, I've never worked with that particular model.

SM58's are so prevalent because they are so versatile. I have used them on many occasions for grand pianos. Their not ideal, but they get the job done well enough.

What I might do is have four stands set up. Start with the MCE's but be sure to have them far enough away (I would imagine that if you put them inside the lid, bad things may happen). If that sound works for you than keep it, if not put in the 58's and call it a day.
 
For close-miking reinforcment, I've had decent results with gaffing a PZM under the lid. You just have to be careful about what the open piano is point at, because it will tend to pick up other sounds if you're at full stick. As has been said, 2+ mics are ideal. Some enjoy one under the soundboard as well, I've gotten nice warm bottom-end with a 57/58 underneath, but that was for a recording and not live reinforcement.
 
I use a pair of condeser mics over the bridge and put on a high pass filter at 250hz. An SM57 under the piano about 1/2" off the sound board, and an Audix D6 kick drum mic in the sound hole in the low strings and use a low pass filter at 100hz.

condesers pick up the crisp clearity of the hammers, SM57 gives the warm tones of the instrument and the D6 finds the depth of a grand piano.

Then blend to suit your ear. Classical piano I don't use much of the D6, however on Jazz or contemporary having that nice left hand deepness can make a real difference.
 
For the OP - I would tend to start with the 58s and an open lid. Put on headphones if possible and find the "best" sound and try to minimize the phase issues between the 2 mics.
Headphones are critical to checking phase (try for the closed style)
For anyone else reading the thread with access to different mics - YMMV but...I have had success with 3 (not 2) PZMs taped to the lid on a grand piano with the lid closed. I use the Crown 30ds ($400 ea) and they work great.
If I use condensers and an open lid- depending on the room and what I need to cut through or amplify success can be had with SDC (small diaphragm condensers) - Rode NT5s or Shure 81s, or my go to LDC AKG 414s if I want a bit more rounded/open sound from a LDC.

Phil
 
If stereo isn't needed, one mic will do. Prop the lid open about 3 inches with a block of wood. Put the mic right in the middle of the crook of the piano, just under the lid. Point it toward the hammers of the higher third of the strings. This will sound very natural and acoustic. It may not have enough attack and brightness for a rock/pop sound, but works well for many things. (A 58 will be add brightness over a typical condensor.)
 
More mics may sound like a good idea, but each time you add one you introduce new phase cancellation problems. As noted above, placing a mic under the piano near the bottom end will reinforce the lows which are easily lost and will not produce phase cancellation problems with the highs as it is separated by the piano itself. This also allows your upper mic to be placed further away from the stings which will give you less "hot spot" problems.
 
Okay, so it sounds like my best bet it to use two 58's. One pointed towards the strings towards the higher end, and then one at the lower end but underneath the piano pointed up towards the base.

One question that might sound silly. I ain't I have to pan each channel to give the stereo sound, which end of the piano should be panned which way??
 
Okay, so it sounds like my best bet it to use two 58's. One pointed towards the strings towards the higher end, and then one at the lower end but underneath the piano pointed up towards the base.

One question that might sound silly. I ain't I have to pan each channel to give the stereo sound, which end of the piano should be panned which way??

That's where the design aspect comes in. You'll have to decide which fits better with everything else.

Personally, I've had fantastic results with a single condenser just above (or even in) one of the holes in the cast iron frame of the piano. Each hole will give you a different sound so again, it takes some experimenting.


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For close-miking reinforcment, I've had decent results with gaffing a PZM under the lid. You just have to be careful about what the open piano is point at, because it will tend to pick up other sounds if you're at full stick. As has been said, 2+ mics are ideal. Some enjoy one under the soundboard as well, I've gotten nice warm bottom-end with a 57/58 underneath, but that was for a recording and not live reinforcement.

Someone let you gaff a mic to their piano? I can't imagine very many people would be ok with that.
 
Someone let you gaff a mic to their piano? I can't imagine very many people would be ok with that.

Sure. I've done it many times, and it doesn't harm anything. Keep in mind that PZMs are small and light, so it doesn't take muck tape. Use real gaffer's tape and don't leave it in more than a couple of days. PZMs work well in a piano when isolation is most important. I do this when I have very loud stage from a big jazz ensemble a few feet away. The results can be a bit colored, but preferable to having trumpets or drums bleeding into the piano channels.

The thing about pianos is that there are a bunch of ways to mic them. It depends a lot on the individual piano, the style of music, and the mic types available. The main thing is take the time to experiment and listen to the results. Does it sound like a piano in a crate, like your ear is 3" from the hammers, or like a real piano?
 
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Someone let you gaff a mic to their piano? I can't imagine very many people would be ok with that.

Good gaff tape is key. Never had any issues with it. There are some "purists" that would turn up their noses at taping a mic to a $20,000 instrument, but I've never had an issue with it actually causing any sort of damage. Plus it's a really easy way to mic a grand for reinforcement settings. I like that you're using a part of the instrument that will reflect and resonate naturally as a pickup source. I like the sound better than a pickup directly on the soundboard.

It's certainly no worse than anything John Cage ever did to his pianos-
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The thing about pianos is that there are a bunch of ways to mic them. It depends a lot on the individual piano, the style of music, and the mic types available. The main thing is take the time to experiment and listen to the results. Does it sound like a piano in a crate, like your ear is 3" from the hammers, or like a real piano?

Bingo. Shure UK has a good map of ideas - http://www.shure.co.uk/support_download/educational_content/microphones-basics/piano

I saw another one a while back that had like 30 combinations of mic placement ideas for the instrument. You've got numerous variations in the size of the piano, the longer grands will have a greater amount of overtones being produced and if you're trying to capture that it's another ballgame, people tend to forget that the soundboard does produce a good chunk of the overall sound that a piano makes, not necessarily just the low end. Stick your head on the back of an upright while someone plays it vs. the top, but it's all about experimenting.

For a while at my church I was really happy with two bidirectional Octavas about 1' off the strings pointing to high/low ends, but wasn't happy with the amount of GBF. Now I use a Barcus-Berry pickup for the "power" and a single condenser about a 1' outside the lid for the high end brightness with heavy roll-off toward the low side. It's not perfect (and it kinda sucks for recording IMHO), but for the reinforcement it works well enough right now.
 
House standard for us is to use two 414's on stands over the high and low strings. We also ALWAYS throw a 57 in one of the holes. Half the time we only use that mic in the hole. It gives you a lot more gain. It is the only mic I will use when throwing piano in wedges.

For you, take the windscreen of the 58, put it in a hole, see how it sounds, try a differen hole until it sounds OK. It is quick and dirty, but it works and it does not matter if they short stick or no stick, it still works.
 
58 or 57 in the third sound hole is what we do whenever possible, our piano seems to move alot so I just stick a wireless belt pak on a piece of foam and let the mic element float over the sound hole. Is it perfect? no, but it works for what I need...I prefer short stick on the piano also...

Like everyone is saying, use what you got, and its only really wrong when it sounds like poo, and than again, I have seen acts that like it that way also...just keep trying till you get the sound you like.
Sean...
 

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