Greetings! First time posting. Question about LEED and lighting.

[Tavon Markov]

Greetings!

First time posting on your forum! Glad to be part of the group!

I have a question about lighting and instruments. I am looking into doing a MAJOR overhaul in a theater that I am involved with. The building is certified on the Gold level with LEED, or Leadership in Energy & Environmental Design. The current installed system is an older NSI 240v microplex dimmer system with 30+ year old traditionals (fresnels, LEKOs), some inappropriate LED fixtures and a few PAR 56 or 64 instruments as well.

I am interested in identifying current, energy conscious lighting instruments, wether they be incandescent, halogen, LED or anything else. The theater has very high ceilings and we are throwing from as far as 80-100' from the UPstage lip.

Any input on this is much appreciated. I am not looking to bypass a professional firm, I would simply like to research and put a dream list together.

I am also interested in new fantastic computer controlled systems for lighting as well. Any info on that would be greatly appreciated.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I understand this may be about being "good" and not about compliance with a regulation, but studies have shown - metering feeds - that production lighting is a very, very small part of a buildings energy use. I'm glad you're thinking about it but no matter what you do, worst to best is almost negligibly in terms of the whole building.

Were money not a major factor, I think it's time to at least study all LED but the long throws could get expensive. One tactic that may be useful is to accept and train people that it doesn't need to be quite as bright as they may have gotten use to, which can he helped by better control, less glare and spill, and perhaps trimming house lights below full. If not all LED, than most all except the majority of front light.

But big bucks.

 

[JChenault]

.

Were money not a major factor, I think it's time to at least study all LED but the long throws could get expensive. One tactic that may be useful is to accept and train people that it doesn't need to be quite as bright as they may have gotten use to, which can he helped by better control, less glare and spill, and perhaps trimming house lights below full. If not all LED, than most all except the majority of front light.

But big bucks.

Bill. I'm missing something here re "long throws could get expensive "

If you are talking about color mixing units, and will only consider more than four colors, you are talking ETC which I believe come in all beam spreads that the incandescent units come in. If we are talking white, the equation does change as ( as far as a quick search indicates ) a 19 degree is about as far as it goes.

So if you are talking S4 LED is there something you don't like about the 5 degree unit?

Or is there something I am missing?

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I think you could be into multiple units to get the illumination level that is possible with a 750 quartz in no or very pale colors; and I'd sure be looking at the Juliat for white as well. One 750 quartz with a back pack dimmer versus one and a half or two Series 2 LEDs - something like $1000 versus $3500-5000. Times 20. Or do you think it's one to one?

 

[RickR]

I haven't seen it but I hear the Altman Phoenix 250W unit matches a 750W S4. That said, 5 & 10 degree beam fixtures are far less efficient than the more common 19 & 26 units.

Tavon - I'll backup Bill on the production lighting side. It all comes down to the hours the stage is used. A normal office is considered to run 60-80 hours a week, 52 weeks a year. You might do
under 20 hours, 26 weeks? Much will depend on how the space is used.

For further education I recommend the manufacturers web sites. They are starting post lumens/watt information. If the power draw is critical use good color and efficiency work lights for most set up and rehearsal time. Integrated production and architectural controls are also important so only the lights that are needed are used.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I use to say 1000 hours based on replacing half the lamps but I think there was consensus here that it's more like a fourth or fifth - which could mean not 500 hours per year. It's an approximation or ball park because of course running a lamp at 50% multiplies its life many fold but not so dramatic decrease in energy. Just saying not a lot of juice in most situations. And I concur that better to make work and house efficient first, followed by cycs.

Was looking at ETC data and it depends what lamp they use for what comparison but the 575 versus the Series 2 LED at 3200 k is a third more light. If that 575 is the 2000 hour version, the 750 is a third again and the short life close to a third again. So more than double the light from a quartz is possible if you need it. Order of magnitude wise. And all a little bit for show,

I recall one of the old timers - Sonny or Chuck Levy or someone - telling me about that "special" T-12 they'd use for the photometrics kept in a safe. Perhaps a "dramatization" but I can only rely on published photometrics so much.

 

[gafftaper]

The power consumption study discussed in this thread a couple of years ago may be useful reading. One of the key points is similar to @BillConnerASTC 's point. How often do you have every light in your rig on at 100%? I have 196 2.4k dimmers in my theater. Are they EVER ALL on at 100%? No of course not. At most I probably have about 70 fixtures on at 75-85%. Much of what I do (lectures and presentations) is only about 20 fixtures at 65%. The fixtures in my theater that consume the most energy on an annual basis are actually my work lights and house lights as they are the ones that get left on all day.

There are many fantastic options for LED cyc lights, wash lights, house lights, and work lights and the prices for all of these are not too bad. However when you get into quality long throw, LED Ellipsoidals which are a direct replacement for the incandescent fixtures you already own, the options are extremely limited and costs are outrageous. LED Ellipsoidals which are truly a direct replacement for traditional fixtures are VERY new to the market. If I was in your position I would think about going all LED for the on stage short throws but not for the long throws. Instead, install some small Dimmer packs over the house (or just keep using what you have already) and use your current lighting inventory for front light. Plan to switch to LED Elipsoidals in 3-5 years, after the technology has a chance to mature and the price has time to drop.

 

[JChenault]

I think you could be into multiple units to get the illumination level that is possible with a 750 quartz in no or very pale colors; and I'd sure be looking at the Juliat for white as well. One 750 quartz with a back pack dimmer versus one and a half or two Series 2 LEDs - something like $1000 versus $3500-5000. Times 20. Or do you think it's one to one?

But does this not hold true for shirt throw FOH as well?

Put another way, why does the long throw affect the cost equation. Is it that the longer throws are just not efficient enough so that a single S4 LED will not cut the mustard, but an incandescent 750 will do fine?

 

[gafftaper]

I think you could be into multiple units to get the illumination level that is possible with a 750 quartz in no or very pale colors; and I'd sure be looking at the Juliat for white as well. One 750 quartz with a back pack dimmer versus one and a half or two Series 2 LEDs - something like $1000 versus $3500-5000. Times 20. Or do you think it's one to one?

Put another way, why does the long throw affect the cost equation. Is it that the longer throws are just not efficient enough so that a single S4 LED will not cut the mustard, but an incandescent 750 will do fine?

ETC has this lovely chart on their web site that confirms by general impression that the Source Four Series 2 LED is very close to a direct replacement for an incandescent Source Four with an HPL 575 long life lamp. It crushes the HPL in some colors and lags behind in others. For most of our needs, it would probably be fine to just swap them 1 for 1. It's also significantly better than the first version fixture was. However if you are used to HPL 750's. You are going to need 1 1/2 or 2 Series 2 LED's to replace one fixture, or wait a while for the next version to be released.

 

[FMEng]

30 year old Lekos would be using 1000 Watt FEL lamps. A standard Source 4 lamped at 750 Watts is quite energy efficient in comparison, at a fraction of the cost of LED. That might be enough to satisfy the desire for energy savings and get new equipment.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

In reply to JC, simply observation tells me in bigger spaces with long throws you need more than even a 575 for face light. Physical space - length of pipe at the catwalk - seems to be more restricted in higher longer throw positions and the position more crowded than say a catwalk 25' out.

In fact, to date I've only used LED only front light in one or two quite small rooms, and more "light duty" spaces like a library auditorium used more for cinema than live. If there is enough budget, we might add an LED wash to the quartz for quick and easy color, but have found it hard to rely on for the only face light. YMMV

 

[JChenault]

Bill

Thanks for the clarification. Makes sense now.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I suppose there are those theaters where you want primary color front lights - can't think of one but possible - and then LED might be the right choice. I wish the illumination and color were there for LED and I'm sure it will be before long, which is why we do solo dimmers at the fixture instead of central dimming, but just not convinced I've seen it yet.