Control/Dimming Hard-wired DMX, or Ethernet and nodes?

[danTt]

A few things:

1) It's a network switch, not a hub. While hubs are indeed networking devices, they've been obsolete for a number of years now and shouldn't be used in any modern installs.
2) Switches are cheap. Rock solid netgear 'dumb' switches such as the GS105/108 can be picked up for $50 or less and will last for years. You should just plan on keeping a few of them around, and placing them as needed. I wouldn't play with coupled cat5 cables if I could avoid it, the couplers tend to break easily and limit your ability to expand or drop a laptop inline/etc. If you have a switch in your booth you can use it to attach a wireless access point to the network as well without issue.
3) While multiple inputs is much more doable with networking, it also can generate more confusion and troubleshooting. The merging of multiple input sources can have confusing results when things go awry, and per-address priority has some strange bugs in implementation that can cause issues if using multiple vendors on the same network. Learning how sACNview/artnetinominator work (or the simplified sACNview that ETC now includes as part of eos) becomes an important troubleshooting step.

Networking opens up the door to a much more powerful and flexible lighting world, but you'll need to commit some time and energy to learning networking fundamentals and how to troubleshoot and maintain new things. Hardline DMX can also be finnicky, but the amount of places where things can go wrong is fewer and we've been troubleshooting it for longer. It's worth considering in your evaluation of which direction to go.

 

[RickR]

All good points.

My mention of multiple inputs was aimed at input locations for simply moving a console for tech or whatever. Merging sources is definitely a complex subject.

Wireless access is great for limited control, but don't plan on running a show over wifi!

 

[Mike Donovan]

I am working in a theatre which is currently two universes. We are planning on getting some new fixtures which will push us in to three universes.

The question - is it time to consider going Ethernet and nodes OR should I just run another DMX cable from the booth to a splitter?

If I want to go Ethernet what are the options.

Any advice, thoughts, or horror stories would be appreciated.

We installed a soundstage in our warehouse last year to help create business during the lockdowns. My lighting control is a combination of MA2-Net over Cat6 and traditional ‘copper’ DMX over XLR5.

I don’t know how ‘networkable’ your desk is, but here’s an example of how I used a Cat6 network to distribute lighting control around our space. You may be able to adapt some of my setup to fit your space, for example as an onstage console for use during hangs and focuses, or a console in the House to use during levelling sessions.

My main console, an MA2 UL, is at LX FOH, but I’ve also built a remote control cart which can move around the space. Some of our shows budget for a single technician only, so the remote cart can provide basic lighting control to the booth of the working technician (either audio or video).

The remote cart has a gigabit switch, a 2-port MA node, a laptop running MA2onPC, and a small conventional DMX console. The laptop and node plug into the switch via Cat6. One port of the node is changed to a DMX input and patched to the conventional desk with an XLR5 cable and male/male turnaround. I then patch the cart into existing Cat6 cabling in whichever booth needs the cart. The other end of said Cat6 is patched to my main Switch at LX FOH. The onPC and node exist in my MA2 network and the small desk is setup as a DMX-IN remote. This way the other technician can run executors with physical faders or more complex lighting with onPC.

Another advantage we gain from MA2-Net over Cat6 is I can control our LED wall and Arkaos video server over the network. Patching it with XLR5 is an option, but this would only allow for 1 universe of video control. In order to get all the video playbacks and attributes needed for some of our shows, the video server needs to use 2.5 universes. Since patching over the network provides a higher limit of universes over a single cable, this was the best way to hook up the server. Also, if the server rack ever had to move for video cabling purposes, it will be easier to patch into existing Cat6 than running new XLR5.

Lastly, if I owned another node, I would have replaced my 2 XLR5 lines and their optos onstage with a single Cat6 run and a 4 or 8 port node.

 

[Chase P.]

Something that I don’t see mentioned here is the need to isolate the show network from the regular building network. You want control of your gear, so you don’t have to go through a custodian or building admin to access it in an emergency. Similarly, you don’t need a random IT guy to unplug anything show critical when he’s working on the box office printers.

I worked a lot in a venue that, when newly built, had problems with beer bottles appearing in the dimmer room. Instead of that being solved between HR and whomever was doing it, admin decided to lock the room, including access to the technicians. Now it’s a mad scramble for keys anytime a network cable needs to be re-patched for a projector or something. Even worse, there are breakers on those dimmers, if those trip during a show....

 

[macsound]

Something that I don’t see mentioned here is the need to isolate the show network from the regular building network. You want control of your gear, so you don’t have to go through a custodian or building admin to access it in an emergency. Similarly, you don’t need a random IT guy to unplug anything show critical when he’s working on the box office printers.

I worked a lot in a venue that, when newly built, had problems with beer bottles appearing in the dimmer room. Instead of that being solved between HR and whomever was doing it, admin decided to lock the room, including access to the technicians. Now it’s a mad scramble for keys anytime a network cable needs to be re-patched for a projector or something. Even worse, there are breakers on those dimmers, if those trip during a show....

While I usually agree, that show networks should be separate from building networks, espically in schools and other shared spaces, when building out a new space or refurbishing it, it's sometimes nice to be able to use the network wherever it runs.

In a church project I worked on, the ability to have a dante adapter or DMX node plug into literally any cat 5 jack in the building and be able to use it is amazing!

It meant that during covid they could have people in their own offices with a 58 and be able to interact.
During youth group they could move a couple moving lights off the stage and into the youth room along with the dmx node.

It does help that the facility is only about 30k sqft and there aren't meddling fingers.

 

[Rob]

I too am not afraid of mixing departments on the LAN. But... for those that are, we have made this product for you.

 

[danTt]

While I usually agree, that show networks should be separate from building networks, espically in schools and other shared spaces, when building out a new space or refurbishing it, it's sometimes nice to be able to use the network wherever it runs.

In a church project I worked on, the ability to have a dante adapter or DMX node plug into literally any cat 5 jack in the building and be able to use it is amazing!

It meant that during covid they could have people in their own offices with a 58 and be able to interact.
During youth group they could move a couple moving lights off the stage and into the youth room along with the dmx node.

It does help that the facility is only about 30k sqft and there aren't meddling fingers.

This is just asking for trouble IMNSHO. If you have a responsive network staff/switch access and knowledge, you can consider a separate vlan on the same physical infrastructure, and moving ports around as necessary, but you need physical access and knowledge to equipment, and the ability to fix or workaround things at 7:55pm when the IT staff has gone home for the day. I will say that in the right scenario it opens up a lot of good possibilities, and not to rule out the option, but it's something you need to have the right people in the right places to succeed with.

 

[danTt]

I too am not afraid of mixing departments on the LAN. But... for those that are, we have made this product for you.

I don't see how this product would be helpful in the described scenario, but I'm also having some trouble understanding exactly what the product is designed to do. It looks like if you have show traffic on two separate networks you can use this to pick and choose which traffic to allow between them? Can you give a real world application? I'm sure you designed it and sell it for a reason, but I'm not sure what it would be. The only thing I can think of is maybe OSC/showcontrol messages, and this seems like the $7000 gold plated hydraulic hammer solution.

 

[macsound]

This is just asking for trouble IMNSHO. If you have a responsive network staff/switch access and knowledge, you can consider a separate vlan on the same physical infrastructure, and moving ports around as necessary, but you need physical access and knowledge to equipment, and the ability to fix or workaround things at 7:55pm when the IT staff has gone home for the day. I will say that in the right scenario it opens up a lot of good possibilities, and not to rule out the option, but it's something you need to have the right people in the right places to succeed with.

That's why I think it's only a good option if you personally control the network, which in the case I was describing, I did.

I think complexity also adds alot to the conversation.
The more complicated the network, the less I'd want to piggyback on it. At a school district or corporate controlled network, hell no.
Also, while VLANs are useful ways of keeping networks separate, it's not what you'd want in a simple network. I'd even say, I'd be more likely to string my own cable if my other option was a VLANd portion of someone else's network. There's nothing worse than having to have a taped printout above a switch to make sure you're plugging into the correct port.

But imagine a simple "home" style network, but at a venue, and you built it.
Fiber internet into a robust router and switch.
Guest wifi capped at 1Mbps and separate from the rest of the LAN.
Front office has 1 computer and 1 copy machine.
Booth has 4 Video computers, Audio has 2 computers and Lighting has 1 computer.

In reality, the only network traffic is casual internet browsing. So why not add DMX? Or Dante? Or NDI?

 

[Rob]

Can you give a real world application?

The web navigation on that above link is a bit crap. Go further to THIS page. Or better yet, watch THIS video.