Hazer advice

[LiveCommander]

Hi,

I'm new to lighting and this forum (been lurking for a while though) and although I have learned a great deal about hazers in general I'm still not sure which one to get. I have narrowed down my choices based on responses to a similar post over at blueroom to these three:

[FONT=Courier New]                              EUR     US$ (VAT excluded)

Antari X-310 DMX Fazer       419         597     Uses standard fog liquid.
Showtec Nebula HZ 450        427         608     Only 1 DMX channel. Uses special hazer liquid.
LOOK UNIQUE 2.1              652         929
[/FONT]

I will be using this to light bands on an infrequent basis (max 10 times per year) so I wouldn't mind paying a lot less. However I require DMX and that seems to increase the price to these levels.

My main reason for posting here is that the Radiance and Unique hazers seem to be very popular with members in this forum. The Radiance is a bit of a problem for me though as I can't find any dealers in Europe (Netherlands or Germany would be perfect) so even if I find one I'm unlikely to get a good price and servicing may be difficult.

Although there's still a significant price difference between the Antari/ShowTec offerings and the Unique, it's small enough to make me wonder whether it makes sense to go for the Unique, so my question is....

What is so great about the Unique that I should consider it in favor of the Antari/ShowTec and be worth paying the additional amount?

Basically what I'm looking for is:

• An 'affordable' DMX-controllable hazer that leaves as little residue as possible. Presummably that means it should be water based (glycerol).
• Will be used for our band to see light beams from our LED pars (Tri-led) and scanners (backlight). We also have some Martin RoboColors (2x4x250W Halogen color changers) as front light
• Will probably be used 10 times per year at most but I want to be able to test our light shows with haze so renting would not be ideal
• Will be used in small to 'medium' sized venues, say 200-800 people
• I'm currently designing a fairly elaborate light show (relative to our modest equipment) which will be fully synced to our music. I'm investing a lot of time in this so I want our show to look good.

I've been told over at blueroom that the haze that is produced by units of this type (water based) is going to be very similar and that none of them will leave much residue.

I've read some complaints about short hang time but is that a problem for my aplication which is rock shows, not theatrics? The ability to also use it as a fogger for some songs would be a nice bonus but we already have a (really old) fog machine that we could use for a true fog effect.

I could find few videos on the net of the Unique and Antari units and although it's hard to tell from a video the Unique did seem to produce something that is a bit more hazy than what the Antari does. The video's didn't show any light beams though, just fog in a well-lit space. I did see a video of the Radiance and that looked great but because of the bad general availibity in Europe it does not seem an option plus it would probably be a good bit more expensive than the Unique (which is made in Germany, right next door so to speak).

 

[chausman]

Are there any places that rent hazers near you? If your only using it "max 10 times a year", 600-900USD is a lot for something used that little. If not, then...never mind!

Oh, and if you want a suggestion, the Antari, for the same reason as above, thats a lot of money for something used so little.

 

[LiveCommander]

Are there any places that rent hazers near you? If your only using it "max 10 times a year", 600-900USD is a lot for something used that little. If not, then...never mind!

Oh, and if you want a suggestion, the Antari, for the same reason as above, thats a lot of money for something used so little.

Very true. But like I wrote I want to be able to test our light shows with haze so renting would not be ideal. Renting a proper hazer (JEM K1) would cost 30 Euro (43 US$) per day so after 20 shows (say 2-3 years) I would reach break-even. I also won't have to worry about picking it up and bringing it back the day after a performance. On the other hand I'll have to worry a bit about maintenance and failures. Admittedly a bit of G.A.S. may also be involved.

I'm still debating for myself whether it's wise to actually purchase a hazer as opposed to renting but the question is, if I'm going to purchase one would it be better to spend US$900 on the Unique or US$600 on one of the others. I'm thinking there must be a reason why people seem to like the Unique so much and why they are recommending it and not one of the other units I mentioned.

If the main difference is that the Unique can be operated several hours, 7 days a week 365 days a year for several years versus the other once a weekend for a few hours for one or two years I might as well get one of the cheaper ones. I like quality but I don't need industrial strength like that. The visual quality of the haze is much more important to me. Fluid consumption is also not a factor given the infrequent use.

If I drop the DMX requirement I could also consider the Antari Z-300 MK II Fazer which is only EUR 206 / $ 294. That is an amount I don't have to think about but on the other hand if this is an unreliable budget unit that creates a vastly inferior I would consider it money wasted.

I believe the Z-300 is more or less similar to the Antari X-310. Having DMX control would be nice though as I'm actually programming my own application to control our lights from my keyboard (responds 'intelligently' to specific chords/notes that I play and switches in sounds). Could be nice to trigger the unit to create a burst of fog for a little while for some songs that required a moody atmoshpere. But I suppose I could do the same thing with a non-DMX remote or let someone control the unit from FOH.

 

[David Ashton]

Hazers have been the bain of my life for years, constant problems, I have a pile of dead hazers, mainly Martin/Gem.I reluctantly bought a Unique as it was specified for a show and it has been brilliant, excellent control, totally reliable, self clean very low fuel use, there may be better units out there but I certainly wouldn't risk the money to find one.I've never had much luck with Antari.

 

[LiveCommander]

Hazers have been the bain of my life for years, constant problems,

I guess that would make a good argument for renting, if it wasn't for what follows:

I have a pile of dead hazers, mainly Martin/Gem.I reluctantly bought a Unique as it was specified for a show and it has been brilliant, excellent control, totally reliable, self clean very low fuel use, there may be better units out there but I certainly wouldn't risk the money to find one.I've never had much luck with Antari.

Mmm, perhaps I should just buy a dirt cheap fazer like the Antari/ShowTec Vivid F-1 for EUR 78 / US$ 111 for my own programming and testing of lightshows and rent a proper one for actual live use. As long as I can suppress my hazer related G.A.S. that might be the best option, there seems little point in buying something that's halfway there for a relative large amount of money. It seems buying dirt cheap + rent as needed or buying really good quality are the two best options in my case.

I suppose I could suppress G.A.S. related to a hazer by using those funds to buy other cool stuff like scanners .

 

[Wood4321]

if it were me,
I would rent a MDG Atmosphere.

I bought 3 uniques for an theatre show.
No hang time, huge fluid usage, even with 3 on the stage, the haze never evens out, it ends up being very dense near the hazer, non existant everywhere else.

to cap it all off, 2 of them needed repairs costing more than 700$ each...

In comparison, I have bought 1 MDG touring model for an arena show, and it has been completely bulletproof.
Sips fluid, incredible hang time, sometimes I turn the machine off at lunch, and when I come back, there is still a great even haze in the room.
Best hazer by far that I have ever purchased.
It is oil based, but the particle size is so small, it doesn't leave the residue of a DF-50. All my tours with them have come back as clean as with a water based hazer.

Sorry for the rant,
I feel very strongly that the unique is crap....
and that the MDG is the gold standard by which all hazers should be judged.

However, I have not tried the antari nor the showtec, however, I would guess they are similar, but I reserve my judgement, as I have tried them in person.

 

[derekleffew]

...If I drop the DMX requirement I could also consider... But I suppose I could do the same thing with a non-DMX remote or let someone control the unit from FOH.

It may be less expensive to buy an on-off hazer and a DMX relay, such as this, or build your own, here or here.

 

[Tex]

Although it doesn't help with the financial part of your decision, I have the Antari HZ 300 and am happy with the results. Lots of haze and good hang time. It's also pretty frugal with the juice. I probably put about 100 hours on it this last year with shows and classes and I haven't had any problems at all.

 

[kicknargel]

In genreal, and oil-based hazer is always going to produce much longer hang-time, leading to a better, more diffuse, true "haze" effect. The classic rock 'n roll look, where you see the beams of light nice and even but aren't aware of any billows of fog/haze, is produced by oil-based hazers (usually a DF-50). The trade-off is expense and health concerns. In a theatrical application, I'll always go water-based, because actors' voices are sensitive to the haze and it can cause problems. For your rock show, you have to choose your priorities. I'd suggest renting a couple different options to see what you like.

 

[Wood4321]

Sorry Nicholas, you have set off one of my pet peeves.
No disrespect intended.
There is NO SUCH THING as water based haze.
It is a marketing term only!
All "water based haze" should be labeled as "Glycol based"

But, in my experience with singers, glycol is a much harder chemical on vocal cords than the food grade mineral oil in an oil based hazer.
The glycol acts as a drying agent, thus causing more problems than the oil based haze.
You are also putting a large amount more chemical in the air, per the amount of fluid being used, due to the low hang time of the glycol based haze.

Here is a quote from the Actors Equity Study,
"In this study, exposure to mineral oil was not associated with increased respiratory or nasal symptom reporting, as glycol exposure was. There was, however, a statistically significant increase in irritated throat symptoms among those Actors with the highest exposures in the detailed exposure analysis (those with more than 10 minutes at peak mineral oil exposure, principally Actors from Rent)."

I believe either product can be used safely, but stating that glycol based haze is safer or less irritating than oil based would be incorrect, as long as exposures are well within normal concentrations.

Respectfully,

 

[derekleffew]

Sounds like someone has been drinking Dalamar's Kool-Aid (fluid).

...General rule of thumb, however:

Cheap = Glycol (what most of you call wrongly "water based")

and

Glycol ≠ Oil


Oil = MAKE SURE YOUR FOG/HAZE MACHINE CAN USE IT.

If your fog machine, haze machine, generator, etc... does not use an oil-based fluid TO BEGIN WITH, the odds are very, very, very , VERY likely it cannot take it AT ALL.

But, that doesn't make him wrong.

 

[Wood4321]

I like the Kool-aid

 

[kicknargel]

Thanks, Joshua, I always appreciate actual information. My anecdotal experience has been that actors/singer complain about the oil-based more, but maybe that's because it's able to get thicker.

 

[Wood4321]

I have seen that as well,
To combat it, I try to move the hazer as far from the stage as possible, sometimes on a balcony rail.
That way, the haze has time to distribute a bit before it reaches the acting space.
Also, with the MDG, you can run it at extremely low output, 10psi or so and allow the haze to build slowly, unlike the hated DF-50...
This seems to help a lot as well.

 

[JD]

Quick but important tangent here-

If you have not used hazers or fog machines: Be aware that newer smoke detectors in fire alarm systems see the haze as smoke. Often problems will not occur until the the ventilation system kicks on and in in-duct detectors are exposed.

You want to flush out any problems at a given venue before the actual show. This often means running the alarm system in "test" mode under a fire watch and over-using the device to insure there are no problems.

/end tangent

 

[LiveCommander]

It may be less expensive to buy an on-off hazer and a DMX relay, such as this, or build your own, here or here.

I thought about that but I didn't think that cycling the power is the right way to go with these machines, or is it? What about things like wam up time?

I suppose it would also be possible to use a DMX relay to actually 'press' whatever buttons are on the machine but that requires modifying the machine itself which may or may not be easy to do (and will instantly void any warranty). I'm an EE so in itself it wouldn't present a problem.

 

[LiveCommander]

Thanks, Joshua, I always appreciate actual information. My anecdotal experience has been that actors/singer complain about the oil-based more, but maybe that's because it's able to get thicker.

If the oil-based machines (crackers) produce particles that are so much smaller than those produced by water/glycol/glycerol based ones I would assume that those smaller particles can and will penetrate deeper into the respiratory system. I can imagine that could lead to increased irritation.

 

[LiveCommander]

You are also putting a large amount more chemical in the air, per the amount of fluid being used, due to the low hang time of the glycol based haze.

Don't want to argue with you as I have zero formal knowledge in this area but in the case of humans and machines that are actively sucking in the air I wonder if the amount of chemical that you put into the air is relevant if you are putting it into the air only because it's also disappearing from the air at a faster rate from condensation or simply dropping to the floor.

Any areas where condensation occurs will certainly have more residue but for the humans (and machines with fans) I would think that it's the actual concentration that's in the air at any given moment that determines how much they ingest.

Would be interesting to know what percentage of particles is absorbed in the lungs when you inhale and how much is expelled again from the lungs when you exhale and how this depends on the substance. Since the glycol based stuff is hydrophilic I would expect a relatively large amount to stay in the lungs. If the mineral oil that is used is hyrdophobic perhaps more of it gets expelled again (but as I mentioned in my previous post since the particles are smaller they are likely to penetrate deeper into the lungs which I imagine might cause more absorption).

Just another random thought: could it be that by putting out more haze than is actually needed for effect the concentration of hase increases because the air gets saturated and that thereby condenstation increases and the amount of residue increases as well?

 

[LiveCommander]

Quick but important tangent here-

If you have not used hazers or fog machines: Be aware that newer smoke detectors in fire alarm systems see the haze as smoke. Often problems will not occur until the the ventilation system kicks on and in in-duct detectors are exposed.

/end tangent

Thanks for the heads up. I've seen that come up in many threads, including the bit about in-duct detectors but I think this information has a place in any thread on foggers or hazers that is started by a newb like me.

 

[LiveCommander]

The more I read and think about this the more I think the way to go for me right now is to purchase a very cheap hazer/fazer for testing purposes only (to see what my light show looks like because a 3d visualizer only gets you so far, especally if you're inexperienced like me) and postpone purchasing a more advanced and expensive unit for live usage. I can rent pretty much anything I want (even an MDG) and I can rent whatever is suitable for the venue.

Thanks to everybody for all the suggestions and advice.