Hazers vs. Dry Ice--Health Risk

Are smoke machines and/or hazers a health or safety risk?


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This is just like the "will atmospherics set off fire alarms" threads. There's no clear cut answer because there are too many factors involved; airflow, room size, capacity of HVAC, output and type of atmospheric, etc.

Many years ago I did a school dance with 2 F-100 foggers. A small group of kids decided it would be fun to stick their faces directly into the flow of the output literally inches from the nozzle and they got sick from it. I shot some video of them doing it, then told them to stop. The parents tried to sue me, until I sent their lawyer the video of the kids doing this. The lawyer backed off because he knew he didn't have a case.

Also, since then I've barricaded atmospherics better, thanks for asking.
 
"This is just like the "will atmospherics set off fire alarms" threads. There's no clear cut answer because there are too many factors involved; airflow, room size, capacity of HVAC, output and type of atmospheric, etc."


There is a clear cut answer, people just dont like the answer so they make argue the point. Designers dont like being told there atomospherics are bothering the performers and actors dont like being told its harmeless.

We all know it is an issue and is not harmless but atmospherics look better then none and we will keep lying to actors about the dangers and actors will continue to protest but this does not mean there is no clear cut answer what it means is people are just being stupid.

JH
 
Sometime last year I posted a response to a different, yet parallel topic. Unfortunately, I have not been able to link to it, as I cannot locate it.

In that post there were several good links and I followed a few of them up and found on that actually conducted medical exams of actors before and after performances and also asked for their perceptions on how the smoke affected them. Where most other studies just ask the actors about how they feel.

The main finding was that there was no medical evidence to suggest that the use of smoke/haze/pyrotechnic smoke actually caused any physical changes in their upper airways, vocal cords or eyes (the main symptomatic areas reported in previous studies).

The main factors involved with reported symptoms were:
* number of performances per day;
* physical demands of their role;
* vocal demands of their role and;
* stress associated with the performance.

The study found that an actor that was physically and vocally challenged in a play with smoke reported similar symptoms when the play was performed without smoke. Likewise, an actor in a fairly stress free part listed few symptoms regardless of whether or not smoke was used.

From what I have read, this is the only study that has taken into account the actual physiological changes and not simply based its conclusions on the subjective feedback of the actors.

It seemed that the presence of smoke was a psychological stimulus for the actors and blamed as the cause for certain symptoms. What appears to actually happen is that in two similar shows and roles (in terms of physical and vocal workload), the show that used some form of smoke/haze was no different in physical effects to the actors than a similar (or possibly the same) show in which no smoke/haze was used.

Whilst Jon raises a good point about the manipulation of the facts to achieve a desired result, I think that it is important to note that in many cases the issues may be related either to the smell or a conditioned response that smoke is bad for you. After all, any fire training / public information will advise you to drop to the floor and crawl to avoid smoke inhalation, as it is toxic and most people that die in a fire do so from smoke inhalation. Yet here we are telling them it is (relatively) safe. Now if I was an actor, I would probably believe the fire department and health authorities that tell me smoke is bad over a tech telling me that this is a different smoke that is safe.

Just another slant on things.
 
koncept said:
isnt fire smoke different than haze and fog. given that most fog/haze is water based????

Some properties are differnt but dont let someone lie to you "water" based fog may be based on water but it has a high content of glycol which is an alcahol (not water) hazers use oil based fluid but there are "water" based ones but there not as great (this is up for debate) just to prove a bit of a point about the whole its not water thing if you run out of haze fluid for a water based hazer you can fill it with antifreeze and will get the desierd effect but it wont smell great.

That study you speak of the medical one is a study of long term effects not short term if i remember corectly. I think long term i would argue that there is damage done but it is so minute that we dont notice it. but short term i have seen actors go to the hospital and needing a resporator affter a show. they had a Asthma attack.


JH
 
koncept - yes, you are correct but my point was that most people will assume that smoke is smoke.

Jon - nope, the study looked at the short-term effects. Actors were examined before and after each performance. A long-term follow up study would be interesting but difficult and expensive. It could take 30 to 40 years before the effects were known but bases upon the data collected and through comparison with other known variables they should be able to make some reasonable predictions.
 
jonhirsh said:
Some properties are differnt but dont let someone lie to you "water" based fog may be based on water but it has a high content of glycol which is an alcahol (not water) hazers use oil based fluid but there are "water" based ones but there not as great (this is up for debate) just to prove a bit of a point about the whole its not water thing if you run out of haze fluid for a water based hazer you can fill it with antifreeze and will get the desierd effect but it wont smell great.

JH

whats the MSDS for vaporized antifreeze? I dont think it is something I would want to expose many people to.
 
Hmm probabaly no worse then haze fluid lol :grin:

I know its been done and I have been envolved with a show that did it and im still alive.

:)
JH
 
jonhirsh said:
Hmm probabaly no worse then haze fluid lol :grin:
I know its been done and I have been envolved with a show that did it and im still alive.
:)
JH

[action=Mayhem]thinks this answers alot of my questions about you Jon :)[/action]

Ooops - I only thought that, didn't type it. ****, this new forum can read minds!!
 
Ha good work very whitty lol...

just for future reference any questions needing answerd about me or my history in the theatre you just need to ask.

JH
 
one factor i havent seen is how many tims during a show and how quickly you can get it out of the theater
 
i have to say that i will agree with the singers they are annoying cuz they can some times make you cough or eritate your eyes but they are in no way harmful to you or else they would not be sold in the first place and o yea they can also set your fire alarms off lol
 
jonhirsh said:
Here is my opinion based on my reaserch.


Smoke machine

glycol based fluid (common name water based fog fluid) it makes your throat dry and causes caughing, there are no long term effets proven yet. but there are short term effects. such as dry throat iratated eyes nose and throat.


hazer

oil cracker. - leaves a mess but is realitvly ok for the body no proven long term effects. does not cause dry throat. but makes a mess for the sound and video guys.

glycol based fluid (common name water based haze fluid) it makes your throat dry and causes caughing, there are no long term effets proven yet. but there are short term effects. such as dry throat iratated eyes nose and throat.

there is no such thing as a water based haze fluid because it wouldnt work there needs to be glycol which is an acahol in it. and we all know that alchol drys out your skin and since your breathing it in it drys your throat.


Dry ice.

this is a grey area in my opinion this is the most lethal of them all dry ice is pure C02 which if not used properly could kill your entire audiance and those sitting in the orchestra pit. there is a huge misconception that because something is natural that it wont kill you well they are wrong the most deadly things are natural elements. dry ice has short term and long term effects

short term - dizyness, fatigue, light headedness

Long term - Brain damage, Death

i do not understand why people demand dry ice is safe it is not ventilation is the key to any dry ice or nitrogen fog effect and theatres esspecialy ones in comunity centers and schools are netorius for bad venting. so i think you need to reflect this in your paper


JH

i think your getting CO confused with CO2. Dry ice produces CO2 which is compleatly harmless to the body unless it is purly CO2 that you breath with no oxygen (O2) what soever. And in all honestey, its only something like 4% O2 in the air at any given time anyways, and u dont use near that much to breath..CPR 101.. So, unless you pumping dry ice into the aud for 4 days straight with everything sealed up and a full house, your going to be ok.

BUT!!!! CO is very harmful, with the effects that you stated above. This is formed from the incompleate combustion of fuel(such as bad burning gas heaters, hot water tanks, etc.) This is far from CO2 and only a few parts per million are enough to cause permanent damage. Chances are though, theres not much of a cause for CO poisioning in a play, at least that we can control, but if there is, your going to have actors and audience puking everywhere long before something serious happens which should be enough of a warning to get everyone out.
 
saxman0317 said:
i think your getting CO confused with CO2. Dry ice produces CO2 which is compleatly harmless to the body unless it is purly CO2 that you breath with no oxygen (O2) what soever. And in all honestey, its only something like 4% O2 in the air at any given time anyways, and u dont use near that much to breath..CPR 101.. So, unless you pumping dry ice into the aud for 4 days straight with everything sealed up and a full house, your going to be ok.

BUT!!!! CO is very harmful, with the effects that you stated above. This is formed from the incompleate combustion of fuel(such as bad burning gas heaters, hot water tanks, etc.) This is far from CO2 and only a few parts per million are enough to cause permanent damage. Chances are though, theres not much of a cause for CO poisioning in a play, at least that we can control, but if there is, your going to have actors and audience puking everywhere long before something serious happens which should be enough of a warning to get everyone out.

If I recall correctly, there is 21% oxygen in the atmosphere. I would think that excess CO2 could cause problems. If I recall my chemistry right, it would cause the equilibrium in our blood stream. There is a series of buffer reactions that occur to maintain constant pH levels in the bloodstream, as biochemical processes will only occur when the pH is between 7.35 and 7.45.

The first buffer is H2CO3 + H20 <=> H3O+ = HCO3-. Now H2CO3 is formed when CO2 and H2O combine. So more CO2 leads to more carbonic acid which lead to more of the acidic hydronium ion.

The second is HHb+ (Haemoglobin) + 4O2 + H2O <=> Hb(O2)4 (Oxyhaemoglobin) + H3O+. Since there is an increase in hydronium ion, the equilibrium will shift by Le Chatelier's principle to produce more O2. This would seem like a good thing, but in fact it is the opposite since the oxygen cannot reach the cells. It needs to be oxyhaemglobin to travel through the blood stream.

This is a simplified version of the process, but it should help to explain why CO2 inhalation is dangerous. The fact that CO2 is heavier than air means that it stays low to the ground. This is often uses for effect but it also means that there are high levels of CO2 close to the ground, though since gas does eventually rise, it will likely rise right up into the nostrils of the performer.

CO possesses it own safety risks and it is important not to confuse CO and Co2, but it needs to be recognised that CO2 does poses risks and these need to be acknowledged and managed as part of the risk assessment process as part of Occupational Health and Safety.
 
Well stated Chris – I think Saxman is confused with the amount of Oxygen that our body uses. On average, we breath out about 16% oxygen, which is why EAR (expired air resuscitation) works. Buffering and pH disequilibrium is not the main issues however. CO2 will bond to the haemoglobin molecules more readily than oxygen will, so the more CO2 you breathe in, the less oxygen you will actually get into your blood stream. This is what will kill you.
 
While you are right, carbonic acid is not typically a problem unless it is mixed with water some how. You lungs can handle carbonic acid very well, go to a city and thats mostly all you can breath. BUT...my precentages were wrong, i checked that out, but i was right in the fact that you dont use near as much as is there, and at the same time, when it hugs the ground, you still need to pump a whole lot into a room for it to get to the point of being dangorous. I cant see people lying on the floor for long periods of time during a show. An aud, etc is a loarge space with lots of cubic yards of air...what ever a few dry ice cues set off probaly wont even amount to a couple cubic yards of CO2, nothing near fatal in any of our aspects.
 
Chris15 said:
If I recall correctly, there is 21% oxygen in the atmosphere. I would think that excess CO2 could cause problems. If I recall my chemistry right, it would cause the equilibrium in our blood stream. There is a series of buffer reactions that occur to maintain constant pH levels in the bloodstream, as biochemical processes will only occur when the pH is between 7.35 and 7.45.

The first buffer is H2CO3 + H20 <=> H3O+ = HCO3-. Now H2CO3 is formed when CO2 and H2O combine. So more CO2 leads to more carbonic acid which lead to more of the acidic hydronium ion.

The second is HHb+ (Haemoglobin) + 4O2 + H2O <=> Hb(O2)4 (Oxyhaemoglobin) + H3O+. Since there is an increase in hydronium ion, the equilibrium will shift by Le Chatelier's principle to produce more O2. This would seem like a good thing, but in fact it is the opposite since the oxygen cannot reach the cells. It needs to be oxyhaemglobin to travel through the blood stream.

This is a simplified version of the process, but it should help to explain why CO2 inhalation is dangerous. The fact that CO2 is heavier than air means that it stays low to the ground. This is often uses for effect but it also means that there are high levels of CO2 close to the ground, though since gas does eventually rise, it will likely rise right up into the nostrils of the performer.

CO possesses it own safety risks and it is important not to confuse CO and Co2, but it needs to be recognised that CO2 does poses risks and these need to be acknowledged and managed as part of the risk assessment process as part of Occupational Health and Safety.

i wasnt saying CO2 is compleatly safe, im just saying in this setting, with this amount being released, theres not going to be much of an effect. Im deffinatly going for more of the reasonable risks, and not the what if way out there chances. Technially, too much O2 will kill you to, but we wont get into that one because theres not much of a chance of the carbon being scrubbed out through the lights, even though that can happen
 
I was using the equilibria as a means of showing where my conclusions came from. They are not central to the effect, rather a means of getting there. As Mayhem said, CO2 will deprive the body of oxygen. I think that it would be fair to say that too much of anything can kill you. More likely things will kill you if there is a sudden change in concentration. For instance, someone who has experienced carbon monoxide poisoning requires oxygen. But giving them this oxygen can also do them harm.

With your comments on carbonic acid and water. Consider that the plasma is your blood is 96% water.

Dry Ice as well as any other type of fog / haze effect can set off fire alarms, but that is a separate issue.

The greatest danger, as has been previously said is to those at a lower level. If for instance, you have an orchestra pit and you use a large amount of dry ice, you will create a fair amount of gaseous CO2. Since CO2 has a tendency to sink, the CO2 will generally reach higher concentrations in this area. Then the risk of asphyxiation to those in the pit etc. significantly increases.
 
But also for that reason of sinking, its not going to set of the alarms as well, which it shouldnt anyways. Personally, i wanted to get purly heat change rate detectors in our aud, but they were to expensive. Then it wouldnt matter what we used. But either way, i dont know if it was in this one or another, never turn off and alarm no matter what type your using. Better to have to evaq the stage or not have an effect that have a subphonia on you for a felony, right?
 
saxman0317 said:
But also for that reason of sinking, its not going to set of the alarms as well, which it shouldnt anyways. Personally, i wanted to get purly heat change rate detectors in our aud, but they were to expensive. Then it wouldnt matter what we used. But either way, i dont know if it was in this one or another, never turn off and alarm no matter what type your using. Better to have to evaq the stage or not have an effect that have a subphonia on you for a felony, right?

I was talking to someone in the theatre complex locally and they said that they have had it whereby the dry ice fog was so good that it went into the foyer. I suspect that the ceiling in the foyer would be lower than in the auditorium and thus the detectors would trigger more easily.

As has been said here, you should isolate the fire alarms in the theatre. You do not want to evacuate the theatre and you certainly do not want to be sending false alarms to the fire brigade. Here you get billed AU$500 for a false call out. Plus if you have a show that runs for a number of nights and you are triggering the alarm each night and you have a genuine fire in another part of the building, the boy who cried wolf effect comes into play. The fire brigade are unlikely to respond and your building burns down.

By all means if you can show me legislation that makes the isolation of sectors on a fire alarms blanketly illegal, by all means produce it but until that time I maintain that it is perfectly legal to have the fire alarm isolated. Check with your maintenance department. Someone has to be permitted to isolate, though in some instances it may be that the fire brigade has to do it.
 

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