Help-FOH Monitor Mixes

EVI

Member
Hello all. This is my first post but I've been lurking for a while. I haven’t been able to find an answer to my problem in the other posts. I have a FOH/monitor mix problem and I'm hoping someone has a good suggestion(s) to help me solve it. I'm sorry about the length of this post.

I'm 53 years old and have been involved in the Canadian Military Music Branch as a fulltime musician for the last 27 years. Last Feb I was asked if I would transfer over to the sound engineer position, as the other individual was so frustrated he was ready to quit. (We do not have professional sound engineers in the Canadian Forces Music Branch).

I’ve been involved in home studio music production for a number of years and felt that I would like to tackle this challenge. It’s been an interesting year to say the least.

I adopted an 18-piece Show Band that hosts 3 primary vocalists, a full rhythm section (Drum Kit, Percs, Bass, 2 Electric Guitars including Acoustic when needed, Keyboards), 4 Saxes, 3 trombones, 4 trumpets. On top of that I have an additional 4 extra vocalists that all sing both backup and lead giving me up to 7 vocalists at any given time. My 3 primary vocalists all use IEM’s and I use 7 wireless mics.

The equipment I adopted are 4x K-Array subs/6x tops and 4x on stage monitors, 3x Sennheiser wireless transmitters and receivers, 1 x DBX Drive Rack, Yamaha Digital Snake and all snake hardware, 4 Shure UFH-R wireless mics/receivers and 3 Shure UHF wireless mic/receivers plus a host of dynamic and condenser mics.
I mix from a Yamaha LS9-32 with a digital snake. Presently I use 29 channels and have used up to 34 channels in some cases.

I employ 6 monitor mixes and 1 FOH giving me 7 mixes. We do not have a separate monitor mix engineer. I’m it. Oh yes we also use a Smartfade with Martin lights, which I also control.

The learning curve has been steep but I have been able to manage live shows (100- 1500) people. We average 150-300 people a performance. Being military also means not being able to pick the venue so that in itself has presented some interesting challenges.

That’s the background. Now to my problem. I’ve been able to manage the IEM’s and FOH mixes quite well (the odd little tweak for IEM’s). The problem comes from the requests of the other 4 secondary vocalists that are relying upon the on stage monitors. They seem to be the typical vocalist problems when using monitors: one needs more of this, another needs more of that, add more or less eq etc, but once the band has played a few tunes the 2 largest problems are: that they can’t hear themselves or the mix is not balanced enough. The onstage volume without monitors or mains ranges between 91 db-106 db. Add the monitors to this and it adds it’s own colors and stage volume increase.

We have tried to get the horns to play softer but that is not an option, especially the way the arrangements are written. Basically the trumpets are screaming at the top of their range.

To anyone out there what solutions would you suggest?

So far I’ve thought of:

1. Using on stage personal mixes (Axiom or Hear Technologies personal mixers) but have no idea if it will work as I don’t know what is involved;
2. Having those that need monitors all have IEM’s and using no onstage monitors.
3. Maybe instead of me adding more equipment is there something I can do at the board to solve this?

Our shows are 90 –120 min nonstop. One tune basically seques into another, sometimes with a short banter between the vocalists. Trying to get hand signals from the vocalists as to what they want is difficult. We have a talkback mic but as no one leaves the stage it’s hard for them to communicate with me. Finally we have no extra people that can be offstage to relay info or work a monitor board.

Your help would gratefully be appreciated. Again sorry for the long post.

Thanks.
 
Last edited:
If I am reading correctly, you are having trouble with vocals not on IEMs. It sounds like they are putting too much of everything else and overpowering their voices. Without adding more ears, they need to learn to put less in their monitor. For example they don't don't need the whole kit, usually the kick and maybe snare is enough. They don't need the whole reed section, just lead, the same for horns. By simplifying what they are getting it may make it easier. Then if you have to push their voice more it is trying to get over less.
As far as what they need increased you need to come up with a definitive set of signals. Number your keyboards and guitars so they signal guitar and whether it is one or two, then show up or down with their thumb. That way aren't asking for two then pointing up with ther finger making you think they really wanted one.
 
It's easy for the loudness war to start. Someone can't hear themselves, so they play louder. That leads to someone else asking for more monitor, which then drowns out someone else. The stage level gets louder and louder. The loudness war usually starts with a loud drum kit.

The trick is going to be lowering the amount of sound on the stage every way possible. First off, the director has to get everyone playing in a controlled manner. It takes vigilance because stage levels tend to build over time, with a large group. (Trumpets may require electro-shock therapy.)

Use every trick in the book to reduce stage levels. Get the drums behind a good shield. Place the trumpets as far from vocals as they can get. Using ClearSonic Flectors might help the trumpets because they play softer when they can hear themselves better. Make sure instrument amps are elevated and pointed right at the player's head, and the volume is up just enough for the musician to hear themselves well. Shields or absorbers around guitar amps help.

The end result is that there will be less spill from the stage. The house will sound better, especially in acoustically live halls, and you will have better control of the mix. The audience won't get blown out either. Often times, the house level gets too hot because it's the only way FOH can over come the spill and get a decent mix. High levels in the house make for more monitor on stage, and the cycle starts again.

Running stage monitors is as much psychology as technology. You have to give them enough monitor but not a bit more. Many times I have nodded my head yes to the request for "more of me" without ever touching a knob and the artist is happy with the "improvement."
 
Keeping the stage volume down is always the first step. Nothing screws up the house sound like blasting backline and wedges. Getting rid of the wedges would be a big step forward.

Letting any vocalist mix his/her own wedge is a mistake in my book. They'll keep cranking it until feedback is a big problem. Even handling his/her own IEM mix may be a bad idea for a lot of folks, as they tend to go for an "everything louder than everything else" mix.

The wedges should be vocals only if at all possible - maybe a little keys and/or guitar for pitch.
 
A couple of things come to mind. What is the physical arrangement of the band? Can the vocalists be located where other instrumetns will not overpower them? And/or where teh key instruments they are having problems hearing are closer? 18 piece bands used to play with ZERO monitors. For that matter Zero FH also. Balance was achieved by musicians playing louder and softer and being physically moved.

What are the vocalists' expectations? Monitor mixes ae not well balanced. They are to give cues to the performers to perform well with the rest of the band.

When are you playing in Hamilton. It sounds like an interested show to catch!

Andre
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back