Help with Mic Selection

jack63ss

Member
I am trying to find the correct microphones to ampllify the sound of an choral group of 4-8 people, without have to mic each person or use hanging mics. They are standing in a straight line on stage, and there is a larger group behind them, with 50-90 voices. The full chorus is loud enough they do not need amplification, but the smaller groups sometimes need help. Currently we have 4 Peavy PVM 48 mics on desktop stands placed along the front edge of the stage apron. The distance from the mics to the talent is 12-15 feet. This works, but in some venues they are too far from the group and they don't pick up the weaker voices very well. And we can't just push them closer, as they would be in the way of the dancers and skits (we are not just a standup chorus). We have investigated various options, but we can not use hanging mics in our venues and since some concerts have 2-3 groups this size, putting a mic on everyone would probably not work either. So we are trying to figure out if we could solve the issue with different mics ? Suggestions, opinions, radical ideas, all are appreciated.
Thanks
Jack
 
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I am trying to find the correct microphones to ampllify the sound of an choral group of 4-8 people, without have to mic each person or use hanging mics. They are standing in a straight line on stage, and there is a larger group behind them, with 50-90 voices. The full chorus is loud enough they do not need amplification, but the smaller groups sometimes need help. Currently we have 4 Peavy PVM 48 mics on desktop stands placed along the front edge of the stage apron. This works, but in some venues they are too far from the group and they don't pick up the weaker voices very well. And we can't just push them closer, as they would be in the way of the dancers and skits (we are not just a standup chorus). We have investigated various options, but we can not use hanging mics in our venues and since some concerts have 2-3 groups this size, putting a mic on everyone would probably not work either. So we are trying to figure out if we could solve the issue with different mics ? Suggestions, opinions, radical ideas, all are appreciated.
Thanks
Jack
What precludes the use of hanging mics?
How wide is your typical proscenium (Thinking of PZM's or PCC;s on the stage side of the prosc')??
Have you considered HEAVY (25 or 36 pound) TALL bases with booms???
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
Hi Jack-

Rule #1 of amplified, live audio: loudest sound at the mic, wins. There is no magic microphone that will ignore the louder voice and focus of the weak. This has implications to micing the small ensemble with a chorus 10x the size behind them.... read on.

There are 2 things: first, this is fundamentally a MUSIC DIRECTION FAILURE. I'm a formally trained musician and have spent 40 years in live audio. IMNSHO, relying on technology to fix these kinds of imbalances is the result of a lack of musical discipline by the singers and laziness or ineptitude on the part of the director. If the balance ain't right without mics, it's not going to "fixed" by putting microphones 8 or 10 feet away from the nearest voices. Second, the way microphones can help overcome limited amounts of that imbalance is to get the microphones positioned in a way that makes the small ensemble louder at the microphones than the chorus. If the chorus is already overpowering the ensemble (and for whatever reason the Director is incapable of correcting), this likely means a microphone for each ensemble member, a couple mics behind the ensemble to pick up the chorus, and a very good mixerperson. The mics will need to be on tall stands and very close (pop star distances) to the singer's lips. It's the antithesis of group singing, but I digress. Did I mention you'll need a good mixerperson? Think "show choir" in needs but without the rock band...

What is the assembly space like, i.e. why is amplification essential to what seems to be a largely acoustic program?
 
What precludes the use of hanging mics?
How wide is your typical proscenium (Thinking of PZM's or PCC;s on the stage side of the prosc')??
Have you considered HEAVY (25 or 36 pound) TALL bases with booms???
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
Ron-

Hanging mics will help with *some* of the issues here (maybe the skits) but won't do squat if the chorus is louder than the small ensemble. Inverse square law says that sound drops by 6dB for doubling of distance. Whatever the SPL of the chorus *at the ensemble's stage position*, the SPL difference between them is essentially fixed in nature, and hanging mics will provide little or no improvement in remedying the acoustic imbalance between the chorus and ensemble, and/or individual members of the ensemble.
 
Tim is right on. There is no type of mic that will magically fix this and the critical factor is the source to mic distance.

The stage layout or even the show elements need to be changed so that stand mics can be placed so that the small group singers are as close as possible to them. Otherwise, you'll need a couple of people to move the mics off when the space is needed.

Minimizing the distance from the small group singers to each mic will reduce the amount of chorus pickup, and increase the volume of the small group. It would be ideal to have 1 singer per mic, but 2-3 per mic will work. Group a pair of strong voices on a mic and a pair of weak voices on another mic, etc., so that the person mixing can balance them to some degree. Directors tend to think putting a strong voice next to a weak one helps, which is the opposite of what's needed to facilitate mixing.
 
Ron-

Hanging mics will help with *some* of the issues here (maybe the skits) but won't do squat if the chorus is louder than the small ensemble. Inverse square law says that sound drops by 6dB for doubling of distance. Whatever the SPL of the chorus *at the ensemble's stage position*, the SPL difference between them is essentially fixed in nature, and hanging mics will provide little or no improvement in remedying the acoustic imbalance between the chorus and ensemble, and/or individual members of the ensemble.
@TimMc The secret to effectively using an Atlas BS36 is all in the positioning and proper application.
Two well swung BS25's will substantially quieten a large chorus while two well swung BS36's will totally silence them once the moaning subsides (I believe this was covered in the footnotes of Don and Carolyn's original yellow bible).
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@TimMc The secret to effectively using an Atlas BS36 is all in the positioning and proper application.
Two well swung BS25's will substantially quieten a large chorus while two well swung BS36's will totally silence them once the moaning subsides (I believe this was covered in the footnotes of Don and Carolyn's original yellow bible).
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
My copy of Sound System Engineering (yellow book) went missing years ago. I think I lent it to a friend who later moved. I'll take your word for the technique having the Davis's nod of approval. :D
 
Ron-

Hanging mics will help with *some* of the issues here (maybe the skits) but won't do squat if the chorus is louder than the small ensemble. Inverse square law says that sound drops by 6dB for doubling of distance. Whatever the SPL of the chorus *at the ensemble's stage position*, the SPL difference between them is essentially fixed in nature, and hanging mics will provide little or no improvement in remedying the acoustic imbalance between the chorus and ensemble, and/or individual members of the ensemble.
@TimMc I used to work with a composer who longed for vocalists with MIDI in, out, and through jacks on their necks so he could play and tune them on his keyboard.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
check out the Ace Backstage choral mic stands. Very tiny visual profile with good height and you can get small condenser elements (they build them in, 3 patterns available). Can be used wired or with wireless mic transmitters, easy to position and remove. Now you have the positioning of close front/overhead mics that can come and go as needed.

 
Agreed ... can't fix broke sound. We recently used 3 Audix MB5055s for a 40 some voice acapella chorus on risers with very good sound. Once the director and stage manager got over the initial visual distraction all was good.
 
Hi jack63ss.

Everything that's been said above about mic placement, mic selection, stage layout, music direction, inverse square law, etc., is true, and equally applicable to your problem. What everyone seems to be assuming however, is that your show has both the main choir and smaller ensembles singing at the same time. I don't think that's the case – or at least not always.

I've worked with a number of choirs that feature the same elements as you've described, and for the most part the larger choirs (90-100 voices in some shows) are not singing at the same time as the ensembles or when skits/dancing is happening. That makes some of the information provided by others less applicable. In general, we've found an X-Y mic pair on a stand in front of the ensemble to be very effective. If the main choir is also singing during that part of the show, it's generally during the chorus, and you can fade the mics down until the next verse. If stage space is limited, the X-Y mics can be wireless, making them easy to carry on and off stage, but limiting the mic selection somewhat. For skits we'll use either area mics (Crown PCC160) on the lip of the stage, body mics on the principle actors, or both. In addition to these mics I've also used 2-4 hanging mics for the main choir in a couple of venues which are acoustically "dead" from where the choir is positioned – these get used when it's just the choir, and sometimes a little gets added to the mix if the other mics on stage aren't giving the balance we're looking for.

All of the above requires a good person on the sound console, and good script of the show where you can make notes about when to make changes.

My current show is an opera that's been scaled down a LOT due to the space we're in. Due to those space limits, and COVID, we have only a 10-person chorus and it is located well off stage. It's mic'd with an X-Y pair of small diaphragm condensers about 8 feet in front of them, and that's working out very well.

@RonHebbard and @TimMc: I don't own the Yellow Book you referenced, nor any BS25 or BS36 stands (mine are all AKG and K&M tripods), but totally get what you're saying. My wife is an excellent A2, and wears a button that reads "Feet first or sideways?" when she works festivals. She refuses to get me one . . .
 

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