Helping with new building. Getting points across as student

[calwalker1]

Hi guys, I'm not sure if I've ever mentioned this before but my high school is getting a new $9 Million dollar building at the moment which includes a ~500 seat performance space and a smaller "black box" style theatre which can probably seat about 100 Less.

I am a student at the school who is also employed as their senior technician in charge of setting up and running all sorts of events along with planning and researching purchases that we may need to make over the year. Having this job has meant that I have been involved in the design and technical planning of these spaces which has created a very interesting experience. As a student I have noticed that the project manager will ask me certain questions which I am not really qualified to answer (most likely knowing this) however when I make other recommendations that I see as quite reasonable I feel like a student where they are saying "great idea" while throwing it out the window (please don't make assumptions before I say what I have suggested).

During meetings I have been asked questions such as how many 3 phase outlets we require and what sort of DMX infrastructure is required, while I can "guess" and think about what I have seen in other theaters. I remind them that my guesses are exactly that a half-educated guess and I have never "designed" a theatre before. The school has gone with an AV installation company for the automation and control system which has lots of experience in the education sector however as far as I can tell very little work with performance spaces with things like dimmers and power (the company has just recommend us a stock standard "Jands" system {an Australian company} which has extremely limiting components (e.g. DMX just terminates at the final dimmer, doesn't run elsewhere).

So these were my two main "suggestions" that I presented to the school which I considered rather impressive, these were pretty much ignored. I'd love you "controlboothians" to have a read and let me know what you think:

• After taking part in a (rather large) production (as desk op and then floor LX after the original dude broke his arm and become the new op) I met up with a man who works for a large company who specializes in the installation and design of everything that goes "beep" or flash in a theatre. This man was the "theatre technology specialist" for the company so working out what goes into a theatre is what he does for a living. After we spoke for a while about the new performance space he offered to come in and have a half-hour chat with the project manager For Free!! just to point out some components they may have missed out on or that could be improved upon. All of this because he doesn't want to see me personally getting let down by the school (that was in his own words). I personally wanted the school to get his company involved but I thought it may be pushing it to suggest that as a student.
  I suggested this man to the project manager who then told me that they were going with the original company and may potentially get this man I have met in at the end for any "further comments" which is pretty much to little too late. (just to add to the fun, the company who the school is going with is led by the same man who "accidentally took" equipment from us when he cleaned out his gear from the old hall (I still to this day wonder how you accidentally take a road case which takes three people to lift and is full of dimmers) However it was eventually returned after a few weeks of hassling them and threatening to contact the police)
  
  That was my first suggestion
• The other thing I did was actually talk to the head of yamaha audio Australia Service and logistics (a regular customer at my Dad's bike shop) and got his details after he recommended that my school can get in contact with Yamaha and "do a deal" for some professional audio gear to be installed properly at some impressive discounts. I forwarded these details onto the Project manager along with a summary of our conversation. This suggestion was answered with a fairly brief message essentially saying that he would "take care of it" and I have heard nothing about it since (in other words I do not believe any form of contact has been made). I have asked once about a month ago offering to get into contact with this person from Yamaha on the managers behalf and he said that he will get onto it later.
  
  
  This is another case of coming forwards with what I believe personally to be an amazing contact to have with an even better opportunity for us and getting pretty much ignored.

Sorry everyone for the long rant but I just thought I would vent to other people of similar thinking to see what you all think of this and to find out how you would potentially go about getting any of this resolved.

I have just been getting a bit frustrated with the concept of being invited to meetings to answer questions I am not comfortable about and have no experience in (just so you all know my answers are actually being written into the designs and submitted to the engineers so the rough guesses I am making are actually being implemented) and being listened to by senior staff members however when I come forwards with details of a contact I have become an acquaintance of who is offering a professional service I am essentially being ignored.

In the (likely) situation that these people are left out and I am in meetings I am wondering what people believe the most important components of a space space like this are, the things I have worked out as important (in order) are:

1> Bar locations
2> Power to dimmers
3> Power flexibility
4> Fixtures
5> Data (DMX and Cat5)

Thankyou everyone for taking the time to read this I hope some of you can give me some pointers for the politics or the designing.
You may have noticed that I have left out names and locations just because this is project is still developing I don't want to end up defaming someone or getting in trouble due to details changing.

Also enjoy the photo of the current stage of the main building (don't ask about the panels I was fairly zoned out during that meeting)

 

[kicknargel]

I don't have a lot of advice other than I feel your pain. Theaters, and especially those in schools, are prime examples of camels (horses built by committee). It baffles me how they'll spend millions of dollars on a facility without enlisting a professional consultant who knows how to outfit a theater. And they'll trust one company (the lowest bidder) to specify and sell them equipment.

I can't imagine that you're going to have a lot of luck, unfortunately. You're obviously a very intelligent and well-spoken person--maybe have a discussion with school administers outside of the presence of the contractors (or write a letter) stating your fears that subcontractors are increasing their margins by cutting corners on your systems, and what could it hurt to have a disinterested party look over the plans and see if you're getting ripped off?

And after college, come to me for a job.

 

[calwalker1]

I don't have a lot of advice other than I feel your pain. Theaters, and especially those in schools, are prime examples of camels (horses built by committee). It baffles me how they'll spend millions of dollars on a facility without enlisting a professional consultant who knows how to outfit a theater. And they'll trust one company (the lowest bidder) to specify and sell them equipment.

I can't imagine that you're going to have a lot of luck, unfortunately. You're obviously a very intelligent and well-spoken person--maybe have a discussion with school administers outside of the presence of the contractors (or write a letter) stating your fears that subcontractors are increasing their margins by cutting corners on your systems, and what could it hurt to have a disinterested party look over the plans and see if you're getting ripped off?

And after college, come to me for a job.

Might be a bit of a long commute to work each day from Australia

I don't really know how this is going to end up but I thought I'd just post this up as other people may have dealt with this situation before and may have some pointers. but that's the problem with his. every building is unique.

 

[Footer]

Do what you can. Organize things in simple list form. Be prepared to lose things on that list, especially in a situation where a contract has already been awarded. If you don't know an answer, don't answer. That can just cause more problems down the line. Heres the thing, this contractor is probably doing a few other jobs at the same time. You adding a few DMX ports is not going to make him any more money, if he does not do it he is not going to lose the contract. You really have very little ground to stand on with the contractor. Do what you can. Also, remember no buidling is perfect, even the new ones. Its pretty common for a year or two of use for problem to arrise and changes are made after the fact. Its expensive, but it can be done. My facility was built in 1976 at a cost of 50 million dollars. After being open for just a few years, the entire venue was shut down and 3 new lighting positions where added, lowering the ceiling 7'. Nothing on paper is perfect. In general, you can never have too much power, too many patch points, too many pieces of empty conduit, too much wing space, too many makeup mirrors, and too much storage space. DMX ports are easy to add. Knocking out walls is not.

 

[Chris15]

Step 1 - remember you are INCREDIBLY LUCKY to be getting a dedicated PAC in a state school and for that much dough to be thrown at it.

My best advice is pick your battles and work out what you can fix after the builders have gone.
Do your utmost to get extra conduits put in anywhere and everywhere

Get as many 3 phase outlets as you can, but make sure as best you can they are 40A ones and avoid 20A like the plague. Try also to make sure there are 10A single phase outlets available at each of those locations too, and not too many outlets to a breaker - your sparkie will not understand this is a theratre. While in an office it's fine to work on the theory of 1000W for the first outlet and 100W each outlet after that when calculating circuits, that don't work in a theatre.

Re DMX - try and get it all star wired back to a central comms room - then you can patch to your heart's content. Just try and make sure it's on 5 pin XLRs

The Jands dimmers or the LSC equivalent are the way it rolls in most venues in this country. How many have they specced? What have they calculated as the maximum demand electrically for the dimmers?

 

[gafftaper]

Judging by the picture, the time to express opinions that can actually make a difference was several years ago. At this point everything is designed, bid, and contracted. I don't know how these things work down there, but here in the states, the cost of the smallest changes to a project can ad astronomically priced fees. The fact that you are a student doesn't matter, it's just too late to change things. Focus on what you can do to learn the building and help develop systems to make working in the space easy while maximizing audience experience. Figure out the quirks and problems with the space that will be difficult to work around and find ways to conquer them.

 

[Johnb73]

If the project has already started being built chances are there is already a spec that the space will be built to. not sure how the process is down there but here you need to have changes in gear approved by the specifier(and sometimes the architect)... and then there is the fun of changing things once the project is just about finished... you add a bunch of change orders so you screw up everyones billing/payments

That being said... if you make valid enough points and make it seem like you can save the contractors money they should listen to some degree. just make sure things are done correctly

 

[calwalker1]

Judging by the picture, the time to express opinions that can actually make a difference was several years ago.

I personally don't know how buildings are usually designed and planned for however while the "shell" is currently planned for and being constructed we are still having meetings about the space. eg. only two weeks ago we chose the type of seating we were going to install (we want to make the space flexible so the seats will be retractable to transform the space) and we are still awaiting further details from the AV company.

I personally have no idea of how this stacks up to other building programs around the world.

 

[shiben]

I personally don't know how buildings are usually designed and planned for however while the "shell" is currently planned for and being constructed we are still having meetings about the space. eg. only two weeks ago we chose the type of seating we were going to install (we want to make the space flexible so the seats will be retractable to transform the space) and we are still awaiting further details from the AV company.

I personally have no idea of how this stacks up to other building programs around the world.

It depends. At my college we renovated a PAC and we chose new line arrays a week before we moved out, and walked the space several times and made changes with the electrical installer and AV installer (add another mic run here, etc.)

 

[cw4u]

Change orders will cost you so you might have a hard time getting additional power in there. But get more than enough power. It's always great to have the ability to add another rack if you need.

I went through a similar situation for the past two years. I was a well respected student who handled a lot of purchasing and maintenance. But by the time I was brought on, little could be done without incurring additional costs. For instance, we were charged 8k for to get enough power to just run 24 2.4k circuits. And that was just wired pulled to the rack location. The main reason being is that they had to pull from all the way across the building. But such an issue wouldn't have cost so much if it would have been thought of pre-slab/dirtwork.

Also, try to act as professional as you can. People are going to wonder why a student is sitting at the same table as someone who has worked their butt off for 20-30 years. Some people might be hostile to your suggestions but just take it as easy as you can.

Everyone in school administration almost knows that getting a large renovation done to a school is very unlikely and is very costly. So, getting the groundwork done right the first time is essential or else is probably won't happen.

You need to list out where you want your raceways, truss, and dmx lines. Where you want your dmx distributed. Make sure you get put at least one or two network lines in on each truss.

Off topic from lighting but...

Make sure you address video distro. You need to discuss if you want rear or front projection. What type of cabling do you want for projection. (SDI, RGBHV, etc) Do you want VGA/DVI/SDI in floor pockets. Do you want to be able to tie into a central digital signage system. Do you want to run cabling for a multi-cam setup?

On audio, you need to look at whether you want a bi or tri amped system, mixing consoles, system processors, etc.

Your A/V installtion company will have an idea on what they can do within budget. See if you can meet with them at some point. Make sure you know what they plan on doing and if you want it changed, make sure you have good, backed reasons on why you want to do it. You won't be able to win every fight but just see which ones would be the most relevant and beneficial.

Overall, don't get stressed and enjoy this opportunity. Not too many people your age can say they got to help out in the design of a building.

 

[Ric]

Boy are you in luck

Take a look at the VAPAC site and the document on Community Halls , which is along the lines of what you seem to be building.
http://www.vapac.org.au/Data/Sites/1/VAPAC%20COMMUNITY%20PAC%20V2.pdf

If you can't see this linked file due to login restrictions then please let me know & I'll email it directly to you.

If you're not a member of VAPAC ( Victorian Association of Performing Arts Centres) then it may be worthwhile becoming an associate member.
My work collegue is the Chairperson of the Technical Managers network, and the group have been out to 'advise' a few upcoming refurbishments, using the above document as a suggested starting place.

There is also a more detailed Tech document for full Theatres called 'Oh you Beautiful Stage' which is available at a cost, that details the full suggested specs for Category A, B & C Theatres.

I do understand your pain at being ignored during the design & fitout process. It has take us 10 years here to get to a stage where we have repaired & replaced most of the original design flaws, and updated the equipment to a reasonable standard.

Yes you may not get the best equipment at the start, or enough bars, or enough lamps, or enough power ( though power consumption is tending downwards with modern lamp technology), but that is the norm.

The things you will most need apart from technical infrastructure is SPACE. Breakout rooms, storage rooms, dressing rooms, set construction/workshop etc. They are the first thing to go on any drawing board, and the thing you can never get after construction.
Power, bars, lamps, audio gear, etc. can all be retrofitted, but it's hard to get walls torn down or more building added!

And for heavens sake, don't let anyone talk you into putting a line array into your Theatre !!!

I understand that you may not want to name your buildings location so feel free to contact me directly.

Cheers,
Ric

 

[calwalker1]

Boy are you in luck

Take a look at the VAPAC site and the document on Community Halls , which is along the lines of what you seem to be building.
Cheers,
Ric

Ric thanks for the link. works beautifully. I am thinking that I am going to type up a list of what is "important" in the venue and how we can work through it, I am also tempted to contact Yamaha as a student and just work out what the process is for these installations (no harm in getting the ball rolling. worst that happens is the school tells me to just leave them alone after I come back with some information) We are pretty far in in the scheme of the building's design (as in walls are pretty much decided on) now we are just discussing the technical elements such as bars and AV.

Also why would I not want a line array? (every new thing I learn is a new thing I've just learnt)

 

[cw4u]

A line array vs a distributed system really all depends on the design of the building. Line arrays work really well in some spaces while others work better with distributed boxes. With the amount of money you're spending on this building, make sure you get an EASE analysis of the building done so you can get a good estimate of how your system will cover the space.

Also, if you're going with a console from Yamaha, (or any other manufacturer for that matter) look at going with a digital snake solution as well.

 

[Chroma]

We just finished move-in on a 600 seat pac after several years of planning. It may be too late for you to implement change, but i'll throw it out there.

Consultants are definately vital. They have a seat at the construction company table where a regular joe may not. even if you are there, theres no reason you would paid any heed. not completely out of rudeness, but the 'end user' usually isnt considered at the early stages.

Now that its time to spec gear, know your programming. know what kind, and how many shows your going to do. do students do all the work? is there a paid TD? do you do huge musicals, or tons of music recitals? what kind of rules apply to overhead workspaces? do students have full access, or will school facilities staff be involved? once you know programming, get administration/directors on your side. they will want thier stuff looking/sounding good, and have a little more clout then you alone.

keep an eye on air handlers. i spent hours in a meeting about air handling and duct routing. i lost a great ladder location to air ducts. and several times, we had to tell the project manager about a duct that was in the wrong location. in one case, 3' off the floor in a walkway. ducts can ruin a good catwalk.

do walk throughs. get to know the project manager, get a hardhat and walk through the site on a weekly basis. ask lots of questions when paper and reality dont mesh.

maintenance: make sure that house lights and other public service lights are accessable without too much hassle for repair.

make sure ladders and lifts are in your specs, or that existing ones can reach.

hope this is helpful.

 

[Ric]

Ric thanks for the link. works beautifully. SNIP Also why would I not want a line array? (every new thing I learn is a new thing I've just learnt)

I'm glad the link works. Your situation is one of the reasons the document was created; to give some guidance and assistance where asked for, from those who have already been there

Sorry about the snide Line Array comment, not meaning to drag this off topic. In my opinion they are the latest fad. They definitely work and solve a lot of problems for the right venue, but tend to be really pushed down the throat of smaller venues as the only way to go.
They definately are not the only option, and are excessive for Theatre style spaces (especially around 500 seat). Point source speakers ( such as Tannoy dual concentrics), with a delay/distributed system are much more common, and work well.
Again, my opnion, but if someone is trying to sell you a Line Array for that size space, then they are really trying to rip you off.

My contact at Yamaha Melb, is James Harvey (Sales Manager), but I we bought our M7cl-48 via Soundcorp who are Yamaha dealers.
Cheers,
Ric

 

[Les]

ducts can ruin a good catwalk...

Amen to that. Back when I was in high school, I had to get 3 stitches in the top of my head due to running in to one while trying to trace an extension cable. The catwalk was relatively dark due to us being in a focus session for a Battle of The Bands. The large rectangular duct, which was about 4 1/2' off the gridiron of an otherwise 6 1/2' tall catwalk had a convenient coupling right in the center of where it intersected the catwalk, providing a razor-sharp 1" fin around its diameter. I just remember following the cable, hearing/feeling a crash, and all of the sudden being on my hands and knees. Then, there was the blood.

There were actually 2 of these ducts, painted black, one running perpendicular to each end of the catwalk. This was a renovation job, so there probably wasn't much that could be done about it. But boy did that hurt!

 

[cw4u]

I work in a venue where the duct work is literally like a foot off the catwalk. Apparently, they didn't redesign it when they went from a two story to one story design.

 

[calwalker1]

I work in a venue where the duct work is literally like a foot off the catwalk. Apparently, they didn't redesign it when they went from a two story to one story design.

Ducts aren't as Much of an issue as we are getting heating built into the floor and I believe we aren't getting any aircon (which I just realized is going to be very interesting when you have a bunch of lights pumping out heat. Another thing to ask about)

One of the main things I am trying to push ATM is making some space for controlling shows as they want everything to run of automation or me dragging out a bunch of road cases which isn't a great idea in the long run.

 

[museav]

Since this is what I do, I obviously have some strong feelings and opinions.

First, there should be someone on the design team that is qualified to be addressing the general theatre and theatre technology components as well as the design and construction process. If there is not then they are already making a major mistake.

The person you noted may be eminently qualified, however 30 minutes to discuss potential components is probably not what you want. Preferably you would have an integral member of the design team that will spend a great deal of time addressing the more general goals of the project and then using that as the basis for developing specific design concepts.

Speaking of which, it is generally better to first focus on the overall goals of the space, especially in terms of functionality, than to go direct to specific equipment. The goal is usually for the equipment to support some defined functionality and result rather than for the equipment to be defined first and that then determine the functionality that can be supported. Thus there should have been a step of creating a Program or Needs Analysis that defines the functional and overall requirements of and goals for the project that occurred before any actual design started. The other purpose of this step is to have some document that can follow through the project and eventually be used to assess if the goals defined were achieved.

I noted that you did not seem to address aspects such as acoustics, sightlines, traffic flow, access and so on. Equipment can always be changed but making a space larger, rearranging the floor plan, having more power available, etc. may be much more difficult to address if it's not right.

I could go on but you probably get the basic idea. However, with that said I think that before anything else it is critical to know and understand the process, where the project is in that process, what your role is and who else may be involved. Without knowing that information it is difficult to understand the situation and make any specific comments or recommendations. The fact is that it would be rather unusual and generally inappropriate to place the responsibility for defining and coordinating the programming, design and/or construction of such a space and the related systems on a high school student. You seem to have a great attitude and to have acted very responsibly and have good reason to be proud of how you have handled the situation, however this type of project justifies having professionals involved who should be addressing some of the questions and issues that seem to be getting addressed to you. Perhaps that is being addressed and has simply not been clarified to you, but if they have proceeded as far as it seems they have without such guidance and input then I would be very concerned.