Vintage Lighting High School Auditorium - Old Lighting System

[Aman121]

Sounds like a good time, I have worked with some dicey systems in our school district, and our main space at school is filled with wiring wonders, although dimming and control are fairly modern. They basically ripped out the old Ariel Davis control system and threw an i96 rack in its place, keeping all of the 60 year old wiring and instruments. It sounds like some new lamps would do allot of good in your space, any way you could eek out some money for that? I recently worked with another area middle school with a. situation similar to yours, they had a kleigl bros. system that was mostly intact, save for about 75% of the lamps were blown in the house and onstage. 500 bucks of lamps and 2 days later, they were back online with a rather extensive inventory. They have a cord patch system with 20 some dimmers and about 120 circuits , running through a protocol converter to an express 24/48. Most of the dimmers are 6 or 12k, so you can put a good number of lights on each one.

To bad your not closer to me, otherwise id have been happy to come down and assist with some repairs ect. Maybe some of the other east coast guys will be willing to help you out?

 

[DavidNorth]

They basically ripped out the old Ariel Davis control system and threw an i96 rack in its place, keeping all of the 60 year old wiring and instruments.

This is a good opportunity for a general information piece. If your dimming system was installed in the 70s or earlier and is being considered for replacement, you need to seriously consider replacing your circuit distribution and flexible cable feeds for a couple of reasons.

Older flexible cable feeds are likely not SO or extra hard usage and over time, depending on flex and use, now have degrading insulation that can cause simple circuit failure and dimmer shorts. These cables have essentially cooked over time, the insulation drys out and the conductors fail. The construction of cables has improved dramatically over the decades and certainly an old cable manufactured for low temperature use in 1962 (for example) is no match for a new cable.

We have seen many older circuit strips built with common neutrals. Again, depending on how they were loaded over the years, they can fail as well. In this case, this is due to common neutrals which will eventually cook and fail open. The worst part about this is that lamps on those circuits will on occasion not be at full brightness or blow due to overvoltage. In fact, this has been reported on this forum before.

Do make sure that a knowledgable electrical engineer or consulting engineer look over all your system components prior to an upgrade to make such things are taken care of and do not cause more serious problems and maintenance costs in the future.

David

 

[DrPinto]

Older flexible cable feeds are likely not SO or extra hard usage and over time, depending on flex and use, now have degrading insulation that can cause simple circuit failure and dimmer shorts. These cables have essentially cooked over time, the insulation drys out and the conductors fail. The construction of cables has improved dramatically over the decades and certainly an old cable manufactured for low temperature use in 1962 (for example) is no match for a new cable.

Really good point. I volunteer at a school that had cable feeds hanging from the electrics that would make a cracking sound as you bent them to plug in an instrument. The insulation looked OK, but it was shot. Also, the old three pin stage plugs had female connectors that were flush with the face of the plug. If you grabbed the plug the wrong way, you could get a shock. When we brought this to the attention of maintenance, they had an electrician come in and replace all the feeds and install the new style stage plugs with recessed conductors.

 

[TechGeek]

We would replace some things, but we just dont have the time. We are constantly using the space and have no time to close it and cancel something.

 

[josh88]

That's easy enough to say when things are working, but once it all fails then what? The case should be made that its better to stop and do it now or in the near future and explain why, rather than waiting till it becomes unusable at an inconvenient time, causing more problems down the line. Just another thing to consider since David brought it up.

 

[TechGeek]

Good point! I was recently at a local dealer getting training and we were talking about the system and the guy was saying how they just had to rent a 96 channel dimmer rack to a school while there system was going through some updates because the dimmers failed. I hope that doesnt happen to us. We want to replace our system but not only do we have the money but the district says that if its working than its fine, not just that but the system is so large and in a area thats off the ground on a concrete platform made as the Lighting space. The lighting area is fenced in and has nothing but a thin stair case that goes up to it and a ledge with a crappy railing, it would be mind boggling trying to plan of how to get the thing out. We gave up on trying to figure out how they got it up there. They either lifted it over the ledge (about 13' up) or put it together up there.

I'll have pictures up by tomorrow night.

 

[ship]

I am a freshman at my High School and we have an older system by Vara-Light. Its got a patch bay and 26 dimmers and 146 circuits, Its a pain and is the original system the school has been using for +30 years. I adapted to it, but its all analog and a pain to find a converter to go from analog to DMX. We have 2 boards (1,100 seat auditorium, really a theatre), we have a "back board" backstage that is analog that we are gonna have to replace soon, we usually use it for work light and sometimes choral concerts with simple lighting. We have the balcony board which isn't much better, it's a NSI MC 24/48 or something like that. One of the video ports is going bad and then if you dont save your work every half an hour it mixes all of your submasters and cues up, then you have to re-program. Our house lights are ran from this separate system that the analog board works off of and it's in the sound office which is by the balcony board but you have to run to it, bring down the house lights, then run back to board and go to your cue. Its really fun(sarcasm)!

We would have to shut down our theatre for a few months to upgrade to a new dimmer system and it would be over $60,000 because we have so many circuits and the system is analog, which means they have to run new cable and everything. So we had cam-locks installed in our "lighting cage" (which is where the dimmers are) and we just rent a ETC dimmer for our spring production.

You got it a bit better than I do! You should try to go LED. They use less power, are more portable, sometimes cheaper, and easy to use!

I know by phone and email the last owner of Hub/Dimatronics/Major amongst many companies they bought out. Just got a call today about a project he was working on in semi-retired bit still out there in the field in fixing the control gear and having fun in his retirement in repairing the old gear when he wants to get off the golf course. Starting to look towards sending sales my way, also looking for old gear while on site to send to the museum, or in asking for who the other contractors were say for a sound gear install he was working with to recommend. Going to attempt to get him to become a member of the forum which would be great for us and I think fun for him. TBA the visit to where I work in getting him to verify some lights I have from his brands.

Anyway, I will forward the post to him and either reply with what he thinks or hopefully we have a great member to have in the most expert reply about the gear.

Beyond that, both posts, most theater supply shops or production companies have a repair department. I know where I work we have over the years repaired and even gone on site to service call any number of old lighting dimmers or consoles. Assuming Ken is available by way of provided phone call to a repair shop, just as even Cypress Creek dimmers, could last for years longer with proper service and repair. Goal is every year to just budget for a service call, after that it just costs more but often still can get repaired.

Realizing it's a long way from the Chicago area Ken lives in

 

[TechGeek]

I think that is the guy we use. Our guy fly's out from Chicago and services our stuff. My TD says they try to get him up here before every spring show, but I think my TD is just gonna wait until the system dies so the district will assist in replacing it.

 

[ship]

cdicorcia, should be easy enough to figure out pinology on the 15 pin when re-running a new analog cable. Challenge of course would be getting that new cable run as a goal. While doing so, should be easy enough to get some extension temp. jumper cables made so as to design the show from in the house and listening to the designer. Any number of companies I can think of would be wanting to make the jumper if not the install company for the booth run as a plus. Problem gets into code in conduit run this replacement control cable. Perhaps a cut run of the origional cable into a patch box and a new run from the patch box to light board might be a way to go. This would grandfather in code compliance perhaps. Unfortunately in a school, not your choice and or ability to get done once the official request is asked for.

Sinking a few hundred dollars into an old system that will probably last another 20 or 30 years with proper care and a repair now, verses replacing it all as seemingly not recognized to be a problem yet for the budget in you even having a theater program not cut yet in budget shortfalls. Sorry but no good solutions even if a parent is willing to do the work, it might become a policy problem in work done given rules.

Hard situation to be in, recognize what you are designing around and learn from that. Perhaps come back later in helping or being as it were a "friend of the court" in later fixing it. On the fixtures, again a professional service call but you still have something of a theater program, might loose it at some point in keeping in mind that.

 

[ship]

I think that is the guy we use. Our guy fly's out from Chicago and services our stuff. My TD says they try to get him up here before every spring show, but I think my TD is just gonna wait until the system dies so the district will assist in replacing it.

Ken Hansen? IN concept if he and other experts I am not one of pass on their knowledge to others... such gear can last forever when properly maintained.

I take it for granted that the goal above is not to maintain the gear so as to go modern. I would hope this gear goes to someone else at least in working condition once replaced. See no reason for instance that something made in 1979 shouldn't still be able to work perfectly fine if maintained.

 

[TechGeek]

The dimmer modules are just old as hell and the covers are falling off, I dont think you can do anything about the modules since they dont make them anymore and the company isnt around.

 

[derekleffew]

We would replace some things, but we just dont have the time. We are constantly using the space and have no time to close it and cancel something.

This says two things to me:

1. Even though the stage lighting may be in an abysmal state of repair, the space must still be desirable. So maybe the lighting isn't as bad as you think.
2. If Cirque, grossing 1500 seats x $100/ticket x 2 shows a night x 5 nights a week (=$1,500,000.00) can schedule time to replace 1000+ dimmers, so can you.

But even if you had started planning the project as a freshman, the likelihood of it being finished by the time you're a senior is minimal.
My hometown school district has eliminated buses for all students, and if a levy doesn't pass this May, will eliminate all extra-curricular activities AND all athletics next year. In light of this, are new dimmers for the auditorium really that necessary?

 

[TechGeek]

Ya. My district is half-a** backwards.

 

[DavidNorth]

That's easy enough to say when things are working, but once it all fails then what? The case should be made that its better to stop and do it now or in the near future and explain why, rather than waiting till it becomes unusable at an inconvenient time, causing more problems down the line. Just another thing to consider since David brought it up.

One of a couple things will inevitably happen on older systems that can no longer be repaired and maintained:

- The lighting system will fail during an important event with dignitaries present or during a very expensive show production thereby causing system replacement in a fast-track.
- Failure on a smaller show and closing of the facility.
- Electric shock with replacement or closure.
- Fire with replacement or closure.

Some administrators view lighting systems as ancillary items that the drama clubs use - not too dissimilar to scoreboards for the basketball team. In either case, they will make do with what they have. What they miss is that lighting systems are high-current power distribution systems that are dangerous when used improperly and when failing that quite often are handled by unwitting high schoolers. Neither the adminstrators nor the high schooler knows what evil lurks behind the hearts of dimming systems......

Be careful.

David

 

[TechGeek]

One of a couple things will inevitably happen on older systems that can no longer be repaired and maintained:

- The lighting system will fail during an important event with dignitaries present or during a very expensive show production thereby causing system replacement in a fast-track.
- Failure on a smaller show and closing of the facility.
- Electric shock with replacement or closure.
- Fire with replacement or closure.

Some administrators view lighting systems as ancillary items that the drama clubs use - not too dissimilar to scoreboards for the basketball team. In either case, they will make do with what they have. What they miss is that lighting systems are high-current power distribution systems that are dangerous when used improperly and when failing that quite often are handled by unwitting high schoolers. Neither the adminstrators nor the high schooler knows what evil lurks behind the hearts of dimming systems......

Be careful.

David

I'll try talking to my TD again. But like I said we just dont have the money, we would have to cancel our Spring show to replace the dimmers.

 

[DavidNorth]

I'll try talking to my TD again. But like I said we just dont have the money, we would have to cancel our Spring show to replace the dimmers.

Sounds good, but please do understand that my comment is not towards you specifically but to all those in a similar situation that think it may apply.

David

 

[TechGeek]

Oh, ya I know.

Heres some more pictures!

 

[ship]

And again, you do have a theater program in place. Yes want more and attempt to make at least bestter what you have. Cut theater program against the work. Do well in working with your teachers in what's the real goals of making art given limited budgets at this point. Not great answers but where is the money coming in to fund your "artistic" needs for the program at this point? Any last year voting of more money for the school distract your theater wasn't pre-asking for a part of in higher taxes for the residents type of thing? Did the higher taxes go thru? I know I aways vote for them.

Money coming in, some times in needs it's cheaper to cut Drama and art before sports. Sorry in answer that this isn't a great year to be requesting even semi-modern gear to run a show off, on the other hand if you can make art from this gear you can make art from any gear. People given the newest moving lights and systems that don't get time to understand the baisics in lighting on the other hand will get the new gear but not understand the purpose.

Perhaps better off with a theater club gear in doing the best you can with it if you can still make art with it, than them that complain that in after three years of high school, they don't have the latest LED or mover at their school to learn from. McCandless what? Na, I know of it... we are more advanced than that now might be said. Really making art off what was designed perhaps in a technology high school is never part of the discussion of what toys were in use. Made art without movers or even scrollers in the past. How one does that I think important to learn still before getting the wiggle lights.

 

[MoonliteLD]

I'm sure you have gotten more than enough info from all of the great posts above. But if you are looking for a cheap fix for some of the lighting problems I would call Park Valley Productions. I believe they are out of Ohio but a friend of mine ordered some lighting gear off of them super cheap. 330.827.9166 I don't know who you would ask for but I am sure they could help you out. If anything they could just provide a couple of dimmers and a new board.

Hope this helps!

 

[josh88]

I'm sure you have gotten more than enough info from all of the great posts above. But if you are looking for a cheap fix for some of the lighting problems I would call Park Valley Productions. I believe they are out of Ohio but a friend of mine ordered some lighting gear off of them super cheap. 330.827.9166 I don't know who you would ask for but I am sure they could help you out. If anything they could just provide a couple of dimmers and a new board.

Hope this helps!

Yeah, park valley is out of dover, like you