High School Theatre in need of Lighting Renovations. Ideas needed!

[RomeoTheatreCompany]

Hey CB!

I'm here representing my High School Theatre Dept. - and we are looking into upgrading two things in our theatre; the light board and several of the lights.

Our first area of interest is upgrading the board. We are running an LP-1600 Plus edition, which is a fine board, and a board I am comfortable with running, but we really want to look into getting a few moving lights for Chicago - our first leap into the world of intelligent lighting. We also want a little bit of expandability.

To be honest with you, we are currently looking at either the ETC Ion or the ETC Element, probably the 40 Dimmer make. But our problem right now is the cost. We're not concerned about our lights right now, we are more worried about the board, because we can't really upgrade into the world of LED's and Movers without a better board.

What would you guys recommend? Im well aware of the differences in boards, and I've been told by many people that we should 'start' with an Element, but my question is this - would we be better off just going for the Ion right off the bat rather then spending money on one board, using it for a little while, and then spending a lot more money to upgrade it? We are looking into sinking a lot of money over the next few years into new LED's and Movers, so that is why I am leaning towards the Ion, for its expandability.

** As a side note, would anyone be able to quote an Ion for me? What is the base unit (no fader units, or maybe with a single 2x20 wing? The only reason to get a wing is for those who don't know how to use the command pad, such as janitors and auditorium users, to manually and easily control the board.) **

As far as lights go, what would you guys recommend we look into for moving lights? We were looking at Martin's Mac series, but most are too expensive for our budget. What about Elation's 250 Pro Spots?

One final question - I'm quite adapted to operating moving lights and everything - but how exactly, and I mean exactly, do I send the DMX from each of our lights (we'd want the two lights to be able to operate both independently and together) to the board? I've seen dozens of types of wireless transmitter (and yes, we will be going wireless) but how do you receive it all and then input it into the board?

We're looking at making a presentation to the School Board to try and get some money from them, and offer to match whatever they can give us.

Thank you very much for your help guys, we very much appreciate it!

Romeo Theatre Company.

 

[DuckJordan]

Hey CB!

I'm here representing my High School Theatre Dept. - and we are looking into upgrading two things in our theatre; the light board and several of the lights.

Our first area of interest is upgrading the board. We are running an LP-1600 Plus edition, which is a fine board, and a board I am comfortable with running, but we really want to look into getting a few moving lights for Chicago - our first leap into the world of intelligent lighting. We also want a little bit of expandability.

To be honest with you, we are currently looking at either the ETC Ion or the ETC Element, probably the 40 Dimmer make. But our problem right now is the cost. We're not concerned about our lights right now, we are more worried about the board, because we can't really upgrade into the world of LED's and Movers without a better board.

What would you guys recommend? Im well aware of the differences in boards, and I've been told by many people that we should 'start' with an Element, but my question is this - would we be better off just going for the Ion right off the bat rather then spending money on one board, using it for a little while, and then spending a lot more money to upgrade it? We are looking into sinking a lot of money over the next few years into new LED's and Movers, so that is why I am leaning towards the Ion, for its expandability.

** As a side note, would anyone be able to quote an Ion for me? What is the base unit (no fader units, or maybe with a single 2x20 wing? The only reason to get a wing is for those who don't know how to use the command pad, such as janitors and auditorium users, to manually and easily control the board.) **

As far as lights go, what would you guys recommend we look into for moving lights? We were looking at Martin's Mac series, but most are too expensive for our budget. What about Elation's 250 Pro Spots?

One final question - I'm quite adapted to operating moving lights and everything - but how exactly, and I mean exactly, do I send the DMX from each of our lights (we'd want the two lights to be able to operate both independently and together) to the board? I've seen dozens of types of wireless transmitter (and yes, we will be going wireless) but how do you receive it all and then input it into the board?

We're looking at making a presentation to the School Board to try and get some money from them, and offer to match whatever they can give us.

Thank you very much for your help guys, we very much appreciate it!

Romeo Theatre Company.

Looks like you have quite a bit on your plate, First and foremost since you are a student most of the suggestions we give you are based upon you being a student. One of the major issues of a student asking for renovation ideas is the lack of true buying power as well as a grasp of what has to happen in order for it to work. 90% of the time it has to go to bid. especially with a purchase of this magnitude. I understand your want to have control over it but it looks like you need to educate yourself a bit more, search the forums and find out how DMX actually works, figure out if your current dimmers are actually going to work with the new board. Figure out exactly what this renovation entails not just small hardware specs that's the least of the concerns.

 

[icewolf08]

To make good suggestions, we need more information from you. Let's stary with a few questions, your answers will help, and if you don't know the answers, post photos or ask for clarification.

How many dimmer do you have? What kind of dimmers are they? What kind of lights, and how many, are in your inventory? Do youhave any other DMX controlled devices? Is there an architechtural control system in place? How big is the theatre? Do you have a fly loft or fixed grid? What is your average trim height and throw distance from your most used lighting positions?

I would venture to guess that all things considered, the Element is probably plenty of console for your needs. With 2 universes of DMX and 250 or 500 channels plus built in submasters it should keep you running for a while. It will get you into the Eos family, so you will be learning to use the same software as many professioanl theatres are now using, but it won't break the bank.

As far as Ion goes, you can get it in a 2, 3, 4, 5 or 6 universe setup. Obviously they charge more for more outputs. In the case of the Ion, I would still only recommend the Ion 1K in your situation, when means that capacity-wise, it isn't that much different than Element, but it costs more. No matter what, that IOn only has 2 physical DMX ports, so you would have to invest in a bunch of network gear if you wanted to use more than 2 universes anyway.

Interms of your concept of "strating" with Element and later moving up, that is kind of nonsense. Unless you think you are going to buy 17 fixtures that have 30 DMX channels each or 64 8-channel LEDs, you will have plenty of control for a while. Don't frett over it. In the off chance that in the next 5-10 years that your school does a show that requires more capacity, they will probably be renting a lot of gear anyway, so you just rent a capable console. I doubt that unless you have some serious money lined up that you will see the purchase of that kind of gear while you are in school.

On to the question of lighting. In order to make good recommendations we really need to know what you have now. If your inventory is made up primarily of fixtures that predate the Altman 360Q, then the first thing that I would do is update your conventionals. I wouldn't buy any moving lights or LEDs unless the conventional inventory is up to date. If your inventory of conventional fixtures is not up to date, take care of that!

If/Once the conventional inventory is up to date, I would think about what accessories would be most useful. Moving lights are not just expensive to buy, they are expensive to own. Most require lamps that cost well over $100 and they require regular maintenance by trained people. They require proper storage when not in use, and generally better handling than most other gear. Generally, you will find that in 9 out of 10 cases for both schools and small theatres, we at controlbooth advise against buying moving lights. Odds are you won't use them in every show, and the cost of renting even for 3-4 shows a year is likely less than the cost of buying. Also, when you rent you have a shop that will take care of mantenance and any problems with the fixtures (assuming you don't cause them). Also, you may have the opportunity to use newer gear every time you rent. Renting is often a more viable option for schools because spending small amounts of money is easier than large investments. Yes, moving lights are cool, but you will find that most professional theatres don't own that many if they own any. Sure, you see them come in with touring shows, and some theatred do have them, but they tend to have a lot more money and skilled employees to take care of them than a school.

Imentioned accessories before. This is what i mean. Consider items like the Rosco I-Cue and Apollo Right-Arm for creating moving lights on demand. Look at color scrollers or SeaChangers as options for color changers. Having a host of items like these can be infinately more useful on a regular basis than a moving light. If you take a peak in the wiki for the "Gafftaper Method" you will find a pretty good list of devices and ideas and reasons why these things usually make better investments than moving lights.

Asfar as actually controlling any gear you get, DON'T use wireless unless you have to! Wireless DMX, while it is improving, should only be used in situations where you just can't do it with cable. In almost every instance, cable is cheaper anyway. What you want to do is run a DMX cable from your booth orhwherever you keep your lighting console to wherever your fixtures are. That may mean running a line to the grid, installing an opto-splitter and dropping cables to electrics, or it may just mean running cable out along a fixed grig (depends on your venue). With any new ETC console you could also install an ethernet network and buy DMX gateways, but that might blow your budget. Even if you go the network route, you still DON'T want to use wireless. As far as how to set up and control your gear, there are plenty of threads on that in the forums and I would imagine there are articles in the wiki as well. just search it. in a very oversimplified explanation, you set the address on each fixture, and then patch each fixture to a channel in the console. Of course you have to connect them all up with DMX cable as well.

So, there is an introductory set of answers and some questions for you. We are happy to help you out, but understand that many of us have a lot of experience, and we are not trying to squash your dreams or tell you that you can't do what you want. We will put things in perspective though.

 

[RomeoTheatreCompany]

DMX Solutions

Hey all - I'm in need of a few answers. We're investing in some new moving lights, and an ETC Element board. I am the LD here, as well as many other things, but I've got a question: If we were to get a multi-universe receiver, and hook that up to our board, we could then simply daisy-chain all our devices, and set them to different addresses, right? We only have two, maybe three, spots that we can hang them realistically, so we could invest in two or three transmitters, which would be placed on the first light, and would relay through all those connected.

Or am I looking at this wrong? Do I need a wireless transmitter for every single light we use? To be honest, the furthest we're going is two moving heads to use for Chicago, probably 250 Spot Pro's or Mac 250's, and some LED's. Do I need a receiver pack that can support, lets say, 10 universes, if we have 10 moving lights? I was told to think of one universe equal to one light. Or do I look at each universe as a GROUP of lights, with each light being assigned a different DMX Address so our board can identify them?

Thank you very much. This is our first leap into the world of DMX Lighting, and I'd like to make sure it goes through properly.

 

[len]

Re: DMX Solutions

Do you mean wireless transmitters? You need one transmitter and one receiver for each wire you want to replace. However, you don't necessarily need one for each light. If you have a number of fixtures near each other and they can be wired, then one receiver, into the first fixture, then daisy chain to each of the next fixtures. If, however, they are on separate universes, then you'll need a transmitter and receiver for each universe.

However, each fixture does NOT need to be on its own universe. Lights and other dmx stuff uses some number of channels depending on how complex they are. A DS 250 takes about 13 channels (can't remember for sure). A dmx universe has 512 channels in it. 512/13 = up to 39 fixtures. Obviously, the number of fixtures you can put on one one universe depends on the channels required by each fixture. Also, you shouldn't have more than 24 fixtures on one universe without using a splitter, but that's another story.

I will, however, play devil's advocate and ask if you even need wireless dmx transmission. I don't know your situation, but are you sure you can't run cables from controller to lights?

 

[mstaylor]

Re: DMX Solutions

Len answered your question, I want to expand on his question of the wireless need. If you absolutely can't get wires in place then go wireless but it is the least desired solution. Wireless is usually used in set pieces or maybe corperate events for wall washes, something where running tons on cable would be a problem. In your situation it is likely that you will have to run power, why is the DMX cable any harder? If you were planning on patching it to a dimmer and running at 100% or park it, you can't.

 

[icewolf08]

Re: DMX Solutions

Hey all - I'm in need of a few answers. We're investing in some new moving lights, and an ETC Element board. I am the LD here, as well as many other things, but I've got a question: If we were to get a multi-universe receiver, and hook that up to our board, we could then simply daisy-chain all our devices, and set them to different addresses, right? We only have two, maybe three, spots that we can hang them realistically, so we could invest in two or three transmitters, which would be placed on the first light, and would relay through all those connected.

Or am I looking at this wrong? Do I need a wireless transmitter for every single light we use? To be honest, the furthest we're going is two moving heads to use for Chicago, probably 250 Spot Pro's or Mac 250's, and some LED's. Do I need a receiver pack that can support, lets say, 10 universes, if we have 10 moving lights? I was told to think of one universe equal to one light. Or do I look at each universe as a GROUP of lights, with each light being assigned a different DMX Address so our board can identify them?

Thank you very much. This is our first leap into the world of DMX Lighting, and I'd like to make sure it goes through properly.

Note: I merged your threads since they are essentially the same topic.

You should still try to answer the questions that I posed above, as my recomendations may change depending on them. Since we don't know too much about your venue it is hard to make the best recommendations.

While I feel like we go over the topic of how to set up a lighting system almost once a week, I suppose, it can't really hurt to do it again. You should, however, make friends with the search feature of the website because the particular infomation you are asking for is here in multiple locations.

DMX is a unidirectional data stream that is sent by the console to all of the dimmers and fixtures. It is pretty straight forward in that it just sends out a stream of level information and the devices connected listen for the levels that pertain to them. Each DMX Universe carries level information for 512 devices (or one device with 512 attributes or some combination thereof).

DMX uses a daisy chain topology. This means that you take the output from the console, connect it to the first device, then connect that device to the next and so on up to 32 devices. You can split and amplify a DMX signal only through the use of a DMX splitter, preferrably an opto-splitter. Creating a "Y" cable to split the line is a very big no-no. When using a good DMX splitter, each line that come out of it should be able to have 23 devices connected.

Devices that use DMX are inherently dumb. You set an address on each device, be it a dimmer rack, moving light, LED, or other device and then the device sits and counts the level information that goes by until it gets to the packets that match it's address. So, if your device has an address of 236, it will count the first 235 packets that go by and then react to the 236th and whatever subsequent packets it requires. In the case of a moving light this could be anywhere from 5 to 35 (or more) packets depending on how many attributes the device has. You never want to overlap addresses of devices, if one device needs 31 channels and you set it's address to 1, then the next available address is 32. IF you overlap addresses you likely won't be able to patch your fixtures or they will not really do what you want them to.

Once you set the address of your devices, you then need to patch them to channels on your console. The Element looks at most moving lights and devices as a single channel with attributes. The console also has built in profiles for most major moving lights and devices on the market today, but you can create your own profile if you are using devices that are not in the library. So, in order to patch your devices, you need to know what universe they are hooked up to, and what the address is. Say your device is in Universe 2, address 236. This is often notated as either 2/236 or 2.236. It is also known as address 748 (512+236). If you wanteded to control the device with channel 101, and it happens to be a Mac 700, you would go into patch, tell the console to associate address 2/236 with channel 101 and to use the Mac 700 profile. The console will automagically assign the appropriate attributes and addresses to the channel so that when you bring up the fixture in live, it just works.

Once again, I would also like to reiterate what I said before and what others have said. DO NOT use wireless unless it is absolutely necesary. Using wireless just adds a major point of failure for show critical devices. While it is true that a hardwire run can fail, it is typically far less likely. I work with a wireless system regularly, and it is one of the better ones out there, but it is way more finiky than a wired connection. There can be latency issues as well as signal dropout and a whole host of other things. It works great when I need to deal with devices on moving scenery and not have bundles of cable, but any device that goes into a fixed position gets a hardwire DMX run. This of course, is aside from the fact that what I have spent on the wireless system could easily have bought me more DMX cable than I ever could have needed for the devices that I own.

So, even if you need 500 feet of cable to connect up your devices, it is worth it to go that route rather than wireless. As was mentioned before, you are going to need to get power to your fixtures, so you are already running cable, it can't be that difficult to run DMX with it. When we do a big show at my theatre, we have cable strung all over the place: through the ceiling, under floors, over doorways, through holes in walls, even in funky spaces behind bathrooms that make you feel like you are in a scene from The Shawshank Redemption. Running cable is no big deal, we do it every day. All things considered, it is often faster and easier to run a cable than configure a wireless system.

Since we still dont' know anything about the layout and construction of your theatre, it is hard to give specific advice on how to hook up the system. So if you were to tell us more about where you think that lights will go, and what your theatre is like, then we will give more specific advice.

 

[shiben]

Re: DMX Solutions

Len answered your question, I want to expand on his question of the wireless need. If you absolutely can't get wires in place then go wireless but it is the least desired solution. Wireless is usually used in set pieces or maybe corperate events for wall washes, something where running tons on cable would be a problem. In your situation it is likely that you will have to run power, why is the DMX cable any harder? If you were planning on patching it to a dimmer and running at 100% or park it, you can't.

I do a lot of work as a corporate stagehand right now, and we mostly work in ballrooms, conference centers, casinos, train stations, and tents. Generators for pretty much everything but conference centers and ballrooms (and even then its not uncommon). We run cable to everything, even though wireless IS an option, because its more reliable in every sense. Its considered easier to run cable than to screw around with wireless. Also, you probably have to run cable anyway, to get power, so there is no real advantage to using a wireless system unless your wall washers have in wall outlets spaced evenly apart exactly where you want them...

 

[Beans45601]

Others have covered pretty much everything I wanted to say. But I would suggest you forget about upgrading your board. I know it sounds exciting to be able to run a new, fancy board, but for the rental of a couple lights for one show, it really isn't worth it. Sure, programming your rented movers on your current light board will be no fun (I use an Express to program scrollers, strobes, fog and a few rented lights occasionally), but use that money (assuming it actually exists) and buy some new instruments, scrollers, strobes, right arms, whatever.

(edit) Okay, well I researched this board a little and I didn't realize it was *such* a small board. My response is pretty much the same, but I would like to add this. If you currently have such a small setup, why would you consider renting moving lights? Clearly you have a small budget, I would strongly consider instead getting more conventional instruments, maybe a few scrollers.

 

[RomeoTheatreCompany]

First off - thank you for all of your replies. Here's a little more info on my situation.

I'm here on behalf of my director, who trusts me to do this job. I'm not running into it without thinking about it at all. I've spent countless hours visiting lighting companies around here, and talking on the phone to advisors. They ALL say we should upgrade our board, an LP1600, to something like an ETC Element.

Here's what I'd like to point out. If I named any lights above (I don't quite remember) they were just examples. We have tons and tons of conventional lights, we've got a perfect set up with dozens of extra instruments we could use at any time for specials and what not. We're just now interested in getting into the world of LED's and Intelligent Lighting. I shouldn't even really say 'movers' - it's literally just a fascination. Our FIRST and FOREMOST concern is replacing our board AND getting some better lights - and we're thinking cheaper, but reliable, lights, slightly more affordable then some of ETC's Selador series. Any recommendations? Also, we have looked at some of the Right Arm devices. Could you guys provide me a few examples of where these could come in handy?

A little about our space.

We seat ~1,000 people, its a large house, and the stage is 52 feet from wall to wall (actual stage area is probably closer to 40-44 Feet) and it's about 22-26 feet deep, depending on the curtain we have at the back, or the cyc, and 16 feet high.

We have three Electrical Bars, all with power ran to them, so this whole 'running cable' issue isn't really and issue for power. Its right there.



Thanks!

 

[chausman]

Here's what I'd like to point out. If I named any lights above (I don't quite remember) they were just examples. We have tons and tons of conventional lights, we've got a perfect set up with dozens of extra instruments we could use at any time for specials and what not. We're just now interested in getting into the world of LED's and Intelligent Lighting. I shouldn't even really say 'movers' - it's literally just a fascination. Our FIRST and FOREMOST concern is replacing our board AND getting some better lights - and we're thinking cheaper, but reliable, lights, slightly more affordable then some of ETC's Selador series. Any recommendations? Also, we have looked at some of the Right Arm devices. Could you guys provide me a few examples of where these could come in handy?

So your looking for "DMX Toys" basically. We generally suggest avoiding American DJ, Chauvet, and some of the cheaper Elations. All of them have their place, that place just isn't theater where you need reliability. If it sound way to good to be true, it probably is. I have heard good things about the Blizzard lines of LEDs and a few members are dealers for Blizzard.

Say you have a scene with a special somewhere downstage with a specific gel, and then in the next scene you need another special slightly farther upstage with the same color gel. And another scene with a special on a platform with the same color gel again. Instead of having to hang three different fixtures and use three different dimmers, you can use a single fixture and dimmer for all three. If you add something like a seachanger, then you get even more options with color on one dimmer.

Or, say you have a special set up on a platform. The director then decides to move the platform a few feet upstage. Instead of going and moving the fixture, you just tell your control console to move fixture x up y degrees.

 

[Eriksrocks]

We have three Electrical Bars, all with power ran to them, so this whole 'running cable' issue isn't really and issue for power. Its right there.

Yes, it still is. You can't run intelligent fixtures off of dimmers. You need to run clean wall power to each and every one.

 

[Les]

We have three Electrical Bars, all with power ran to them, so this whole 'running cable' issue isn't really and issue for power. Its right there.

I'm assuming that you're referring to the dimmed circuits which are run back to the dimmer racks. Just make sure to allow room in the budget for relay modules (which replace the dimmer modules) for supplying constant power to your DMX fixtures. Consider data as well.

I do support the idea of upgrading your board if you can. Leprecons are good, but I think you're getting close to hitting the ceiling as far as its capabilities are concerned when it comes to ease of use.

The Right Arm is designed as a refocusable special. It's not really what you'd want to use for crazy ballyhoos and things like that, but they're great for hitting a few extra marks as chausman described, as well as creating slow-moving effects. Not to say that the Right Arm is extremely slow (I really have no idea how fast it is), it's just designed with more emphasis on precision rather than speed.

 

[icewolf08]

I'm here on behalf of my director, who trusts me to do this job. I'm not running into it without thinking about it at all. I've spent countless hours visiting lighting companies around here, and talking on the phone to advisors. They ALL say we should upgrade our board, an LP1600, to something like an ETC Element.

First of all, it is the job of every vendor, supplier, and rep to tell you that you need something. In your case though, you are due for an upgrade. No one is questioning if have done your research, only if you and your director really understand how large capital purchases work within your school/district. A new lighting console is typically not something you can just run out and buy unless you happen to have a donor or budget that is separate from the school's. Generally, capital purchases of that magnitude need to be bid out. This isn't inherently hard, you just need to know how it works.

Here's what I'd like to point out. If I named any lights above (I don't quite remember) they were just examples. We have tons and tons of conventional lights, we've got a perfect set up with dozens of extra instruments we could use at any time for specials and what not. We're just now interested in getting into the world of LED's and Intelligent Lighting. I shouldn't even really say 'movers' - it's literally just a fascination. Our FIRST and FOREMOST concern is replacing our board AND getting some better lights - and we're thinking cheaper, but reliable, lights, slightly more affordable then some of ETC's Selador series. Any recommendations? Also, we have looked at some of the Right Arm devices. Could you guys provide me a few examples of where these could come in handy?

Define "better" lights. What do you actually have now? If you have a host of source fours, most people would think that you have some of the best fixtures currently on the market. Now, if you are still running old strand lekolights, that is another story. LEDs and moving lights are not inherently "better" than conventionals. For that matter, a source four with a scroller or seachanger is not necessarily better than a source four with one color in it. It is all in what you need the light to do.

I see multiple product demos for new fixtures every year, but the question that always goes unanswered is: how do I get into this gear on my budget? LEDs are wonderful if you have the funds to buy enough. This usually requires some kind of grant, major donation, or being rolled into major capital improvements. Most of the LED units that are worth using in theatre run in the $800-$1300 range. At that price I can buy a couple PARs or source four PARs and outfit them with scrollers, which to me seems to be more bang for my buck. You have to remember that just having one or two units probably won't do whT you need it to on stage.

What is a Right-Arm good for? It can make any device you attach to it move. Need a special to move or to point a projector at different surfaces in different scenes? You can put them on a right-arm and make them move. The concept is similar to using an I-cue, but the entire unit is moved, not just a mirror.

A little about our space.

We seat ~1,000 people, its a large house, and the stage is 52 feet from wall to wall (actual stage area is probably closer to 40-44 Feet) and it's about 22-26 feet deep, depending on the curtain we have at the back, or the cyc, and 16 feet high.

We have three Electrical Bars, all with power ran to them, so this whole 'running cable' issue isn't really and issue for power. Its right there.

You have to remember that LEDs and moving lights cannot be plugged into your dimming system. You may have circuits on your battens, but if they run to dimmers, you can't plug your devices into them. You need to have constant, non-dim power for MLs, LEDs, and many other devices. If your dimmer rack supports it, you may be able to get constant or relay modules to send non-dim power to specific circuits, otherwise you will have to run power from elsewhere.

Given the trim heights you specified, you could probably look at 500w ML fixtures and be happy, and certainly anything with more punch cant hurt.

 

[Synchronize]

A little bit of advice--in schools the administration doesn't usually like to replace theatre equipment unless it break. Not suggesting anything here, just stating

And I will weigh in on the wireless conversation as well. Wireless is bad. Bad, bad, bad. Unreliable and bad. I've sat down in front of my board 20 minutes before house opens and try to go to cue 1 just to have my wireless transceiver die right in front of my eyes. Luckily, I had 2 100' DMX cables that I brought just in case. The director wasn't too excited about having a DMX cable taped down right though the middle of the house, but the show must go on, right? Wireless is really good for one-offs, trade shows, weddings, or any other short, non-traditional production and that's about it. Sure, a cable can go bad too, but it's much less likely.

As far as the Element vs. Ion conversation--There's no need to worry about outgrowing your Element. My personal deciding line between an Element and Ion is 10 movers. If I have more than 10, I prefer the Ion--less than 10, I'm fine with the Element. And you never have to worry about LEDs as the element is perfect for them. The Element is going to be about half the price of the Ion (Ion only no faders) and comes with your faders.

As far as movers go, I'd honestly recommend looking into some of the cheaper grade LED moving heads. They kind of get a bad rep as DJ lights, but really they can be pretty spectacular fixtures, especially for the price. 90w LED movers can be much brighter than a 250w conventional mover and a fraction of the price. Blizzard Lighting (as mentioned above) makes a really nice 90w mover. Both I and BillESC are Blizzard dealers and either of us would be happy to assist when you get to that point. (I don't know of any other Blizzard dealers on CB, but if you're out there, I'd like to meet you!)

 

[Benjod82]

I would echo that recommendation, the software on the two is virtually the same. We use an Ion, but had the Element been out when we purchased it, we would have had a difficult decision to make.

A little bit of advice--in schools the administration doesn't usually like to replace theatre equipment unless it break. Not suggesting anything here, just stating

And I will weigh in on the wireless conversation as well. Wireless is bad. Bad, bad, bad. Unreliable and bad. I've sat down in front of my board 20 minutes before house opens and try to go to cue 1 just to have my wireless transceiver die right in front of my eyes. Luckily, I had 2 100' DMX cables that I brought just in case. The director wasn't too excited about having a DMX cable taped down right though the middle of the house, but the show must go on, right? Wireless is really good for one-offs, trade shows, weddings, or any other short, non-traditional production and that's about it. Sure, a cable can go bad too, but it's much less likely.

As far as the Element vs. Ion conversation--There's no need to worry about outgrowing your Element. My personal deciding line between an Element and Ion is 10 movers. If I have more than 10, I prefer the Ion--less than 10, I'm fine with the Element. And you never have to worry about LEDs as the element is perfect for them. The Element is going to be about half the price of the Ion (Ion only no faders) and comes with your faders.

As far as movers go, I'd honestly recommend looking into some of the cheaper grade LED moving heads. They kind of get a bad rep as DJ lights, but really they can be pretty spectacular fixtures, especially for the price. 90w LED movers can be much brighter than a 250w conventional mover and a fraction of the price.

 

[RomeoTheatreCompany]

Thanks all for your help. Our first step is replacing the board, so for now, we're only looking at a few LED's to show off with the new board, or maybe a few cheap movers.

My final question is this. I couldnt even tell you what kind of dimmers we have. Or what our Patchbay is. I searched it all over for brand name, but it is almost exactly like an ElectroControls Sliding Patchbay. It still works just fine and does it's job with 42 Dimmers, and somewhere around 160 circuits around the theatre. All of the information from that monster comes out into a small grey box, which then outputs a DMX line into our board. So, essentially, for our 'new' situation, we would need a second DMX OUT From the Element, all the way to back stage, and then splitters where necessary?

I guess the real question above is also - is that patchbay and dimmer system compatible? Or are we going to blow the whole thing up? It may be old, and when people come by and see it they say it belongs in a museum, but for all of our uses so far, it's done fine.

 

[Tex]

Just to reiterate what Icewolf08 said above, make sure that the district will allow you to spend budget or student activity money on a capital expenditure. I tried to spend the last of my budget money last year on an ION. I wanted to split the cost between my budget and some fine arts department money. Purchasing vetoed the expenditure, saying that only money from the capital improvement budget could be spent on a console. They wouldn't let me buy cabinets for the booth either, but I can buy lumber and build those as a tech theatre project.
On another note, if your dimmers are as old as I suspect they are (you mention a manual patch bay), you may have some trouble finding relays that fit your rack (if they even exist). Supplying constant power to movers or LED's is going to be a bigger effort and expense if you can't get power from dimmer circuits.

 

[dramatech]

My final question is this. I couldnt even tell you what kind of dimmers we have. Or what our Patchbay is. I searched it all over for brand name, but it is almost exactly like an ElectroControls Sliding Patchbay. It still works just fine and does it's job with 42 Dimmers, and somewhere around 160 circuits around the theatre. All of the information from that monster comes out into a small grey box, which then outputs a DMX line into our board. So, essentially, for our 'new' situation, we would need a second DMX OUT From the Element, all the way to back stage, and then splitters where necessary?

I guess the real question above is also - is that patchbay and dimmer system compatible? Or are we going to blow the whole thing up? It may be old, and when people come by and see it they say it belongs in a museum, but for all of our uses so far, it's done fine.

What you are descibing is an analog system. The dimmers as originally built to accept either a 0 to 10 volt dc signal for each dimmer, or a 0 to 15 volt dc signal. There was also a system that used a minus 0 to 24 volt dc signal (Luxtrol) and some early EDI scrimmers used another DC signal system that escapes me at the moment, but is mentioned many tmes in other threads. Most systems used the 0 to 10 volt with some of the early Electro-controls using 0 to 15 volt. In any case that little grey box that you refer to, takes a DMX signal and converts it into multiple channel outputs of one of these forementioned analog control voltages. changing or updating to any newer or different lighting console that outputs DMX, will not "blowup" your system. The one thing that you should be careful to check, is if you really have DMX coming out of your current board, or if it is in fact Microplex or some variation of microplex. This can be checked by unplugging the XLR connector on your control cable and counting the pins. NSI, Lightronics and Leprechon all produced boards that outputed Microplex and DMX. (not always both on the same board.) Microplex has three pins in the connector, the same as audio connectors. DMX has five pins in the connector.
If you have five pins, then you are good to go. Just plug it in the back of the new board. If it is microplex, there are converters available that can replace your little grey box and still run DMX. If that is the case, then you will need to eventually know if the old dimmer system is 0 - 10 analog or one of the others. There are converters available for the 0 - 15 volt analog, as for the other analog, I think that it would have to have either some modifications or custom built.

The patch system that you are describing, was originally designed by Ariel Davis. Later his company was sold to Electro-control. Ariel after the sell, made another patch of the same type that was built in such a way as to get around his own patent. There is also a company that either licensed or got around the patent in some way that built dimmers and patches. The name escapes me at the moment, but they have been discussed on other threads on CB. I believe that they were manufacted some where in Texas and had a very short name such a Daco, or something like that. In any case, they are all out of business. There are however several companies that still service these dimmer systems.

I hope that this is helpful in identifying what you have, and what you can do with it. I also would suggest the Element. I have had a chance to play with it and the ION, and in less you are going into the concert business, the Element is a very good board for any High School, small college, or community theatre. It will be our next purchase. We are a community theatre with 140 source 4s, 34 PARs, 30 PARNels, and 36 Fresnels. We have two Right Arms, one autoyoke, 64 scrollers and about 200 dimmers. We are currently using an Insight 2X for programming and an Express 250 for playback. After visiting the ETC booth at LDI and playing with the Element and the ION, the Element would be more than enough board for us.

Tom Johnson
Florida's Most Honored Community Theatre

 

[Synchronize]

Microplex has three pins in the connector, the same as audio connectors. DMX has five pins in the connector.
If you have five pins, then you are good to go. Just plug it in the back of the new board. If it is microplex, there are converters available that can replace your little grey box and still run DMX.

I just wanted to point out that pin count on a connector is not always the best way to determine what control interface you're running. Three pin DMX is becoming very prevalent (as microplex fades out). Though, in this case, three pin DMX is unlikely considering the age of the equipment in question.