"Hiring" an Intern

[bishopthomas]

So, I was cleaning some cables the other day when I thought, "This would be a great job for an intern!" So I come here asking for advice from others who have experience in hiring/taking on interns. It would be an unpaid internship (for the most part), but I'm not looking for slave labor either. Ideally this person would work in the warehouse, prep gear, and go out on gigs for minimal pay. Eventually "minimal" would turn into real show pay and he/she would hopefully become a part of the regular crew.

So, what are some things I should think about before looking for this intern? If they are looking for school credit how does that work? Any advice would be appreciated.

 

[derekleffew]

Both sides, but particularly the internor, must be very careful: The Unpaid Intern, Legal or Not - NYTimes.com .

 

[TassieBogan]

My usual attitude toward the situation - If they can lug gear for hours on end a coil a lead to your company / venue's standard, they're worth at least casual employment. Then they can work their way up from there.

 

[shiben]

So, I was cleaning some cables the other day when I thought, "This would be a great job for an intern!" So I come here asking for advice from others who have experience in hiring/taking on interns. It would be an unpaid internship (for the most part), but I'm not looking for slave labor either. Ideally this person would work in the warehouse, prep gear, and go out on gigs for minimal pay. Eventually "minimal" would turn into real show pay and he/she would hopefully become a part of the regular crew.

So, what are some things I should think about before looking for this intern? If they are looking for school credit how does that work? Any advice would be appreciated.

You can do something like hire an intern at the minimum wage, with part of their compensation being school credit. As far as I know, most of those programs involve you signing papers that say they learned this and that. Sometimes the school will want to come and see what you are teaching them, etc. It varries from school to school. However, I know that you can do something like xx dollars a week for more hours than would be minimum, but you get school credit as well, or you just get work experience for a fee and learn about being screwed by the system... depends on how you want to run it.

 

[MNicolai]

The fact that you had to put "Hiring" in quotations means you never really expect to pay them at all, but yet do expect to make money off of their work.

The only thing more repulsive than a business trying to profit off of unpaid interns are the people who think their skills are literally worth nothing at all.

To any students out there -- never work for free. If you get involved with a non-profit where nobody is making any money, then it's volunteering (which is different from work), but don't ever work someplace that makes money off of your work but considers you to be worth $0.00/hr.

 

[jstroming]

The fact that you had to put "Hiring" in quotations means you never really expect to pay them at all, but yet do expect to make money off of their work.

The only thing more repulsive than a business trying to profit off of unpaid interns are the people who think their skills are literally worth nothing at all.

To any students out there -- never work for free. If you get involved with a non-profit where nobody is making any money, then it's volunteering (which is different from work), but don't ever work someplace that makes money off of your work but considers you to be worth $0.00/hr.

You are completely incorrect in (pretty much all of) your assertions. I worked for ESPN for free loading in truss building boxing rings on midnight to 6am shifts in Manhattan venues when I was in high school. It was incredible experience to be 17 yrs old and learning stuff like that. I busted my butt and would never have thought "gee, ESPN is making money off of me, I should let the next guy get this opportunity so I can sit at home and ***** about how cheap some employers are".

The bottom line is in this industry people NEED to do things for free in order to get a leg up on other people looking for employment. If everyone had your attitude "my time is too valuable" then we'd have a bunch of lazy ass people that would think they're too good for anything. Oh wait we already have that. Take a does of humility bro.

 

[MNicolai]

The bottom line is in this industry people NEED to do things for free in order to get a leg up on other people looking for employment.

If people at McDonald's can make minimum wage to flip burgers, then I assure you that the work you were doing was at least worth minimum wage.

How insane would it be if every time someone went to someone looking for a job and said, "We can't pay you, but your work for us will look good on your resume," they actually took the work. Even big name groups like PRG do events that would look good on their resumes, but you don't see them willing to work for free just because the argument could be made that they would learn something from the opportunity of working a given event.

Time is my finite resource for doing anything while I'm alive, and I'm not at all willing to give that away just because someone thinks their business' name will look fantastic on my resume.

 

[Footer]

In this instance, you should not be hiring an intern. In my view, interns are there to shadow people who are actually getting paid. If you are bringing on an intern only to get them to do something you would have a paid person do anyway, then you are in the wrong.

Now, that being said, many summerstocks do hire interns and they do not pay them. However, they usually pay for them to take college credit and pay for housing/board/travel. No, they don't have anything in the bank at the end of the summer but they also are not losing money on the deal.

 

[shiben]

If people at McDonald's can make minimum wage to flip burgers, then I assure you that the work you were doing was at least worth minimum wage.

How insane would it be if every time someone went to someone looking for a job and said, "We can't pay you, but your work for us will look good on your resume," they actually took the work. Even big name groups like PRG do events that would look good on their resumes, but you don't see them willing to work for free just because the argument could be made that they would learn something from the opportunity of working a given event.

Time is my finite resource for doing anything while I'm alive, and I'm not at all willing to give that away just because someone thinks their business' name will look fantastic on my resume.

Your wrong. The idea is supposed to be that when you intern, generally the pay is in experience and often credit hours. Sometimes interns even get paid stipends. Based on what bishopthomas says in his post, I would hope that A, he has enough integrity to treat his interns well, and B, he says that he intends to make them part of normal show crew. To me, this sounds like an ideal internship for someone who was wanting to go into the type of production he was in, maybe a junior in HS who could work his way up during college, and probably gain a ton of useful experience. By the end of college this guy would probably be making a nice stipend for living expenses. Also, an internship implies that you gain something from it. The problems come mainly from major firms where interns are basically administrative assistants and not gaining any useful skills, and you need several to even think about a low end job. Also, it sounds like bishopthomas intends to actually pay a minimum rate, or something like that.

 

[shiben]

In this instance, you should not be hiring an intern. In my view, interns are there to shadow people who are actually getting paid. If you are bringing on an intern only to get them to do something you would have a paid person do anyway, then you are in the wrong.

Now, that being said, many summerstocks do hire interns and they do not pay them. However, they usually pay for them to take college credit and pay for housing/board/travel. No, they don't have anything in the bank at the end of the summer but they also are not losing money on the deal.

I think it depends on how he has them do the work. For example, I think an ok internship would be spend x amount of time doing maintinence tasks, then x amount of time prepping gear, then x amount of time loading in, then move up to full crew member, I think that would be an ok internship, because it teaches and gives you practice in all kinds of different things, works sort of like a real world class, and in the end, you end up with a job opprotunity. As long as the intern didnt just clean stuff and move heavy things, its probably ok. A good thing to do might be to find an academic program you want to draw from, and work with them to come up with things the intern would do. You might also find out if you help them get credit, are you allowed to pay them money (a buddy of mine had a similar situation happen, the school would not let him get paid a stipend because that would make it a job not an internship so he couldnt get credit at school for it).

 

[ruinexplorer]

Please, everyone keep this civil. Most of what is being said is opinions and thus cannot be right or wrong, but just differences in how internships are viewed. There are some legal points that must be met in order for an internship to be legal. The Department of Labor has a nice factsheet to help employers determine how to develop their internships.

When I was in college, I did turn down a prestigious internship (at Capitol Records) because it was unpaid. I had to do so because I did not have enough savings to live in LA until I could get a supplementary job. That was the only reason I turned it down. After all, internships are great for not only the experience that you get, but also the contacts that you make.

So, stipend or hourly pay is nice for the intern to get by, but the experience and the contacts are potentially the best rewards for the intern. After all, the internship potentially will financially hinder the employer, especially as set by the standards the DOL.

 

[bishopthomas]

Thanks, Ruin, for the fact sheet, and thanks to everyone else for their comments so far. Of course I'll treat an intern fairly. If I wanted to hire someone I would go out looking for candidates who were already trained. Internships are for students or people with absolutely no experience in the field. The way I see it is internships are designed to provide this experience and to develop relationships. I have no problem with school credit and such (I would even pay someone cash at random to cover some expenses such as gas and food), but if I am going to be paying someone then it's not going to be someone I have to train.

 

[bishopthomas]

The fact that you had to put "Hiring" in quotations means you never really expect to pay them at all, but yet do expect to make money off of their work.

No, it doesn't. I would be more than willing to pay someone a small amount (in cash) weekly or on a non-schedule. I also do not expect to make money off of their work. As I mentioned, I had this idea while cleaning mud off cables. How would I have been making money from them doing that instead of me? I'm not depriving anyone else the opportunity to be paid to do these kinds of tasks as I would just do them myself (as I do now).

The only thing more repulsive than a business trying to profit off of unpaid interns are the people who think their skills are literally worth nothing at all.

I'm not talking about trying to get an intern who already knows how to do everything. I would be looking for someone who does not yet have the skills necessary for this line of work. So yes, not yet having those skills means that they are not worth anything at all. Eventually they will acquire these skills and then be a good candidate for hiring in a real position.

Even though you don't agree with the idea of unpaid internships (a paid internship is just an employee) they exist in most fields and are very beneficial to the intern. I didn't start this thread to get into a debate about the ethics of internships; I am curious as to the legal implications, methods of finding/taking on an intern, whether school credit is common, etc.

 

[Edrick]

Let's just say tred carefully. In MA and I'm sure elsewhere it is completely illegal to hire someone under an "internship" with no pay and no actual college credit. You can call them an intern and may them minimum or you can pay them nothing and give them college credit. But you must do one or the other and show that it's legitimately an internship.

Otherwise you can face steep fines and legal trouble, how do I know this? Let's just say a place I once work did this and had to quickly do a hiring spree of these interns to avoid trouble.

 

[bishopthomas]

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Edrick. I'm all for college credit, maybe someone here could let me know what I need to do on my end. Should I find the student through the college or have him/her take care of the paperwork and I'll sign at the X? I guess I feel like if an "intern" is paid then they're not really an intern, they're an employee. Learning on the job does not an intern mean...

 

[dramatech]

Thanks for the words of wisdom, Edrick. I'm all for college credit, maybe someone here could let me know what I need to do on my end. Should I find the student through the college or have him/her take care of the paperwork and I'll sign at the X? I guess I feel like if an "intern" is paid then they're not really an intern, they're an employee. Learning on the job does not an intern mean...

I just completed having an intern with me for the last several months. The college approached me and asked if I would have an intern work with me. The school is 14 miles from my theatre, and the students parents had to come up with a car for him to commute for the internship.
We met and worked together every Mon, Wed, and Fri from 2-5pm. He was required to review weekly with his faculty advisor what had been learned and what work had been performed. He was a technical theatre major in his last semester of his senior year. The tech professor felt that the school couldn't offer the skill levels that this student wanted to learn.
What ever I was doing during the time that he was with me, we did together. On probably 1/3 of the times, It was strictly a training situation, with me sitting and teaching him theory and application. He is graduating today and has a summer gig and a job offer with a fairly major equity house starting in the fall. Both gigs mentioned that part of his hiring was because of the internship, and the experience he gained.
Both of his parents have thanked me for giving him the opportunity. He received no pay and had to pay for the gas to commute. He did receive college credit.
I am paid on a show per basis, which I use to buy lighting equipment for the theatre. The rest of my time is volunteer and our theatre is non-profit.
This first time experience of an internship went well, and students from that same school are already asking to do the same. During a couple of our work experieces, we did some work at another college. That school was so impressed with the program, that they are discussing with me to have the same thing happen for them.
There are many considerations to be addressed going forward with these two schools. Questions that I am already considering: Should the student be in their last semester of learning, Can I handle more than one at a time, should there be some sort of test to determine the sincerity of the pupil. I am not a patient person, and do not want to work with any body that requires close supervision and only wants the credits.

Tom Johnson
Master electrician and SPX technician
theatre Winter Haven

 

[robartsd]

There are many considerations to be addressed going forward with these two schools. Questions that I am already considering: Should the student be in their last semester of learning, Can I handle more than one at a time, should there be some sort of test to determine the sincerity of the pupil. I am not a patient person, and do not want to work with any body that requires close supervision and only wants the credits.

In my opinion, work experience can often be helpful in getting more out of classes; however, the school specifically contacted you about the first student because they felt that you could go beyond what they could cover. If the school does not offer any courses that would be better understood after the practical experience you provide then there would be little reason for students to intern with you earlier in their education process.

If the demand for internships exceeds your ability to provide them then you should probably take an opportunity to interview and make your own selection. Perhaps all perspective interns could come to an orientation where you would present what the experience would be like and what your expectations would be. After the orientation you would briefly visit with each candidate one-on-one, then deliberate and inform the schools of your decision.

It certainly should be possible for a student who "only wants the credits" to fail their internship - or at least have it terminated early and only receive a portion of the credits they were hoping to get. Just like with any course, the program and expectations should be made clear at the beginning and students should be held accountable for their own efforts in their education.

 

[shiben]

In my opinion, work experience can often be helpful in getting more out of classes; however, the school specifically contacted you about the first student because they felt that you could go beyond what they could cover. If the school does not offer any courses that would be better understood after the practical experience you provide then there would be little reason for students to intern with you earlier in their education process.

In my experience, doing the work is almost always better than taking a class. A class on lighting design can have you doing all kinds of projects, and even doing a design for a scene with a director in a different class, but nothing beats the experience of walking into a new venue for the first time ever, and meeting with the rest of a creative team. Same with tech work, I would say I learn more while doing my job than is even possible in the best class on how to be a good ME. You just cant beat the real-world challanges, the random changes, and the managing a crew that real-world experience provides.

 

[theatre4jc]

I find this whole discussion very interesting. I just "hired" an intern to work with me at our church this summer. I put it as "hired" because he is unpaid and turned down the school credit, so officially he is a volunteer that is allowing me to schedule his time. But it's a situation where his technical director approached me on his behalf and asked me to step in and help teach him and give him more experience. Luckily my summers are crazy busy and will give him ample opportunities to learn. I view this as a win/win because he gets knowledge and experience that he desperately wants and I get free labour. He has never designed shows and I will have him design 2 during our summer, as well as maintenace gear, and do setups and tear downs. Everything I would do myself, but now I'll have help.

When I was in college I interned on a film. During the project I applied for a paid PA job on another film and was told till I've put in the grunt work of at least 3 unpaid internships on feature films that I wouldn't even be considered for a paid position. Frustrated I left and decided to stick to theatre and concerts where I was already getting paid a decent wage. I chose my time to be more valuable than the resume credits, however I learned so much from my first film that it did help me land the current job that I have where film/video production is a small part of what I do. Without that experience I wouldn't have my current job. Unpaid internships do pay off in the end. It should be noted that the film did provide food and housing for me...I lived in an abandoned prision for the course of the film but at least it was a bed and shelter.

 

[ruinexplorer]

Let's just say tred carefully. In MA and I'm sure elsewhere it is completely illegal to hire someone under an "internship" with no pay and no actual college credit. You can call them an intern and may them minimum or you can pay them nothing and give them college credit. But you must do one or the other and show that it's legitimately an internship.

Otherwise you can face steep fines and legal trouble, how do I know this? Let's just say a place I once work did this and had to quickly do a hiring spree of these interns to avoid trouble.

Obviously, in addition to looking at the US department of labor, you should also look at your respective state. From my understanding of the Cirque du Soleil internships, they require the student to be receiving college credit and they pay some sort of wage (don't know how much, but I do know that there are friends of CB members who have taken these internships and they might be able to tell us more on that end). In other words, the Nevada DOL is obviously different from the Massachusets DOL. Go figure.