Hoist Motor Power

DaMenaCe

Member
Hello All,

Doing some research on power distro for chain hoist and controller. I have some understanding of 3 phase power but i am slightly confused.

The Venu has a service line with 5 cam-locks ( Black, Red, Blue, White, Green.) Does anyone know what is the voltage between the two lines?

Is it 240 or would it be something else? Also, I am curious about what would or should the voltage be from the ground to the hot leg.

Please correct me if i am wrong but, here's what I am thinking. The 5 wire supply line is in a delta configuration, split-phase with the white/neutral ( please see the attached image) so, 110 or 208 single-phase can be made available when needed. The twist-lock connection for 3 phase power on the distro would ignore the natural and use the 3 hot legs and ground.
 

Attachments

  • 3_phase_4_wire_delta_240.png
    3_phase_4_wire_delta_240.png
    5.9 KB · Views: 337
Hmm, that's Interesting.

I have a motor controller that reads Power In: 380 /220 v 3 phase.

I was considering getting this distro linked below. It doesn't have cam lock connection points but that's something I can work out.

I wanted to confirm if that 5 wire cam-lock tie in at the venue would provide 240v.

i understand the motors will work at 208v 3 phase but, just concerned if it would cause any damage.

Power Distro From Ebay
 
The way I was taught abut the whole 120+120=208?!?! was that while 120x2=240 you should take 120x 1.73 which is the square root of 3. So 120x1.73= 207.6 so basically 208. I was taught that is because that is where the sine waves cross in three phase power. Though I didn't have much elaboration on that at the time 18 years ago. If anyone can clarify this further please feel free to.
 
Hey Chawlang, i understand it pretty well how and why the 208V comes about. i was just trying to figure what is the typical/common setup. if it is set up to have 208V per leg, i can see how.

I am just concern about running the equipment far below the rated voltage range. The load applied on the motor for this particular application will be very little so technically i don't need the motors producing "full power" but, I the ide of operating the motor out of the recommended voltage range bothers me.
 
I am just concern about running the equipment far below the rated voltage range. The load applied on the motor for this particular application will be very little so technically i don't need the motors producing "full power" but, I the ide of operating the motor out of the recommended voltage range bothers me.

What type of hoist do you have? Make & model?

CM Lodestars are one of the most common. From the snippet below of the manual, they single-speed units are nominally rated at 230V but are intended to operate anywhere between 208V and 240V.

1604355539028.png


Your specific hoists may vary.
 
Last edited:
Hey Philip... I see you are from Jersey. Happy to see that. From little that i know about 3 phase power distro, I assumed the power distro does not have any transformer so what you put in is what you will get out. Thank you for sharing that info.

Mike, as i made the post on here, i was digging through the cutsheet for that info. I confirmed, you are right the motor and the controller will be fine/with-in the operating rage at 208V. Thank you for that.
 
Last edited:
If you need control you should know about one of the oldest makers of motor control, https://www.motionlabs.com/. They make quality equipment and will answer your questions. They have off the shelf offerings in various power inputs, cams, IEC, twist and all of the standard outputs for power and control, seperate on twist, 7 pin, etc. If that doesn't work for you they do custom. There are other manufactures if you search online, but if you are needing advice it is probably best to buy new and have a resource for tech support. I mean we can help, but the manufacturer knows their gear.
 
Hey Lex thanks for the info. I hear you on getting support from the manufacturer. We have some lunch box style, 3 phase Motionlabs power distro with CS8364 style plug. I am familiar with the quality of the product and the support they offer but, with the way things are going right now, buying new is a little tough.

I typically rent from 4wall and PRG and hire folks that have the knowledge base to complete the job. With that said, I like to learn and know things so, I am not in the dark, or if I have to resolve an issue I can make an informed decision. i have never really had to use 3 phase power or tie into Can-lock so, this is a bit of new territory, and want to get input from folks that have the experience and happen to know a thing or two, bounce ideas back and forth.

BTW I spoke to the engineer at the venue and he confirmed, it's set up for 208V, 100 Amp.
 
Hey Lex thanks for the info. I hear you on getting support from the manufacturer. We have some lunch box style, 3 phase Motionlabs power distro with CS8364 style plug. I am familiar with the quality of the product and the support they offer but, with the way things are going right now, buying new is a little tough.

I typically rent from 4wall and PRG and hire folks that have the knowledge base to complete the job. With that said, I like to learn and know things so, I am not in the dark, or if I have to resolve an issue I can make an informed decision. i have never really had to use 3 phase power or tie into Can-lock so, this is a bit of new territory, and want to get input from folks that have the experience and happen to know a thing or two, bounce ideas back and forth.

BTW I spoke to the engineer at the venue and he confirmed, it's set up for 208V, 100 Amp.
@DaMenaCe One BIG caution when operating 3 phase hoists:
If / when you inadvertently have a phase reversal, not only will the hoist run backwards (Up = Down. Down = Up) It will not see its internal limit switches and will continue hoisting or paying out as if its internal limits weren't there.
This was previously well covered on Control booth. I'll attempt a brief synopsis to inform / pique your interest:

When phasing (phase rotation) is correct, if the hoist is lifting, it expects to be hauling chain in. It will haul until it reaches its up limit and stop. Similarly when paying chain out.

When phase rotation is INCORRECT, if the hoist is lifting it is actually running backwards (lowering); it will reach its down limit switch, the limit it wasn't looking for and keep right on running, likely damaging itself, its load, and those below it. Gravity; it's not just a good idea, it's a law.
My synopsis hasn't explained this well. Definitely Search the importance of phase rotation with 3 phase hoists. Learn about it. NEVER forget it. Play by the laws and rules. Live long and prosper.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
@DaMenaCe One BIG caution when operating 3 phase hoists:
If / when you inadvertently have a phase reversal, not only will the hoist run backwards (Up = Down. Down = Up) It will not see its internal limit switches and will continue hoisting or paying out as if its internal limits weren't there.
This was previously well covered on Control booth. I'll attempt a brief synopsis to inform / pique your interest:

When phasing (phase rotation) is correct, if the hoist is lifting, it expects to be hauling chain in. It will haul until it reaches its up limit and stop. Similarly when paying chain out.

When phase rotation is INCORRECT, if the hoist is lifting it is actually running backwards (lowering); it will reach its down limit switch, the limit it wasn't looking for and keep right on running, likely damaging itself, its load, and those below it. Gravity; it's not just a good idea, it's a law.
My synopsis hasn't explained this well. Definitely Search the importance of phase rotation with 3 phase hoists. Learn about it. NEVER forget it. Play by the laws and rules. Live long and prosper.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
@DaMenaCe Post #15 in this Question Of The Day (https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/importance-of-phase-rotation-on-chain-hoists.46826/#post-411588) is the full answer / explanation.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
I realize I'm a little late to the party - but a few basic points the OP may find useful looking at company switch type disconnects in the future.

1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power - but - but -
>>>> whenever working with 3-phase power presentations get and use a decent DVM - and always measure leg-leg and leg-neutral voltage before attaching load.

2) in anything other than a running theater-only venue never assume the previous electrician knew/knows/cares about the difference between Delta and Wye power - and refer to 1b (measure)
(in case your wondering if you did have 5 wires off a Delta 3-phase transformer one of the hot legs to "neutral" would be around 200v - the 3 phase gear wouldn't care but your single phase control and accessories just might) - - and for the fully technical here I know "200v" isn't accurate but it gives a sense of the difference between the high leg and the expected 120 volt potential.

typically true 3-phase equipment (motors/transformers/heaters) won't care about differences in 208 vs 240 volt presentations - however- your fuses or circuit breakers will - that is, a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps.

As far as making sure that the phase relationship between the hot legs are correct you usually have to be sure you've properly matched your cams correctly and be ready on the stop button if/when the motor begins running backwards, and then take appropriate remediation.

As far as the specific motor distro from Ebay you referenced, it loos to be set up for a dual-twist motor cable setup (4-wire twist for control, 3-wire twist for motor power) but I don't see that it inclues any sort of a remote for actually controlling the motors so be aware that you might still have to use individual pickle controller for 1 motor at a time operation. - - be sure the dual twist configuration matches your current motors.
 
I realize I'm a little late to the party - but a few basic points the OP may find useful looking at company switch type disconnects in the future.

1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power - but - but -
>>>> whenever working with 3-phase power presentations get and use a decent DVM - and always measure leg-leg and leg-neutral voltage before attaching load.

2) in anything other than a running theater-only venue never assume the previous electrician knew/knows/cares about the difference between Delta and Wye power - and refer to 1b (measure)
(in case your wondering if you did have 5 wires off a Delta 3-phase transformer one of the hot legs to "neutral" would be around 200v - the 3 phase gear wouldn't care but your single phase control and accessories just might) - - and for the fully technical here I know "200v" isn't accurate but it gives a sense of the difference between the high leg and the expected 120 volt potential.

typically true 3-phase equipment (motors/transformers/heaters) won't care about differences in 208 vs 240 volt presentations - however- your fuses or circuit breakers will - that is, a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps.

As far as making sure that the phase relationship between the hot legs are correct you usually have to be sure you've properly matched your cams correctly and be ready on the stop button if/when the motor begins running backwards, and then take appropriate remediation.

As far as the specific motor distro from E-bay you referenced, it looks to be set up for a dual-twist motor cable setup (4-wire twist for control, 3-wire twist for motor power) but I don't see that it includes any sort of a remote for actually controlling the motors so be aware that you might still have to use an individual pickle controller for 1 motor at a time operation. - - be sure the dual twist configuration matches your current motors.
@Gobokat Quoting your recent post: "a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps".

Are you suggesting an applied voltage of zero volts will cause connected gear to consume infinitely high current?
In the mid 1990's, I had a co-op student who leapt to this incorrect assumption. I explained if his logic were correct, black-outs would be prohibitively expensive. @TimMc Care to comment?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 
typically true 3-phase equipment (motors/transformers/heaters) won't care about differences in 208 vs 240 volt presentations - however- your fuses or circuit breakers will - that is, a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps.
This comment about current consumption is not entirely correct. Motors will indeed consume more current at a lower voltage in many cases, since their power consumption is related to what they're driving and in general would not be changing greatly with the voltage difference. Devices powered by switching power supplies will likewise show increased current consumption. In both cases there are limits, of course: as the applied voltage approaches zero volts, the current likewise goes to zero, as can be demonstrated by unplugging the equipment. Heaters and other resistive loads will consume less current, per Ohm's law, and consequently have their output reduced by about 25%. A transformer, for all practical purposes, doesn't consume any current in and of itself; its characteristics in relation to a voltage drop or increase would be determined by whatever load is connected to its output.
 
1) if you see 5 cam outs (Blk, Red, Blu, Wht, Grn) it HAS to be WYE (120/208) power - but - but -
>>>> whenever working with 3-phase power presentations get and use a decent DVM - and always measure leg-leg and leg-neutral voltage before attaching load.

The second part is correct, ALWAYS measure leg to leg, and legs to neutral (and I also do legs to ground)
BUT, the first part is incorrect. (which is why we always measure)

On more than one occasion, I have seen 5-cam outs as high leg delta... 240v phase to phase, 208 phase to neutral on one leg, and 120 phase to the other two legs.
By code, the 208 leg cam would be orange instead of red, but can often be hard to discern.... and not everyone follows code... especially with older installs.
two of the times I ran into this issue were rental generators and transformers, where the transformer had been configured as high-leg, but was not marked.
The third time was a TV gig in an old warehouse that had used high-leg for the previous tenant, and we were the first production in the space.
 
@Gobokat Quoting your recent post: "a lower presented voltage (208 vs 240) will mean that the equipment will draw more amps".

Are you suggesting an applied voltage of zero volts will cause connected gear to consume infinitely high current?
In the mid 1990's, I had a co-op student who leapt to this incorrect assumption. I explained if his logic were correct, black-outs would be prohibitively expensive. @TimMc Care to comment?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

Ron - hmmm, I not much for pure theoretical so I'll leave that to someone who loves doing math on paper (assuming people still do that?)
BUT - I would say that as a motor has voltage decreased it will continue to draw more current until the voltage lowers to a point where the motor stalls at which point I believe the current will spike to a very high level until either the motor burns out, a CB trips, or the power continues to drop past the point at which there is enough EMF to even attempt to spin it.
Does that match your experince / expectations?
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back