House limiters -- EQ, driverack, something else?

But that may also explain a lot of the low frequency muddiness. For one, you are probably getting significant effects from the enclosure. In fact it almost sounds like the sub are working more via what they transmit structurally than through airborne transmission. For another, since you are apparently letting the mains run full range then you potentially have the same information coming from different sources in dramatically different locations. I think when you can get the subs in a better location and with the right crossover to the mains you'll be a lot happier.

I have no problem with people that like it loud and feel that the volume level is part of expressing their vision but I have never understood people who routinely like it louder than the audience obviously appreciates. It is amazing how many people apparently don't seem to believe that having your audience walk out in the middle of an event with their hands over their ears is not usually a desired result. If numerous members of the audience are holding their hands over their ears and/or walking out, it is too loud!

Given your console I take it that your LCR arrangement is actually run as exploded mono or stereo plus center mono using groups rather than being true LCR. Nothing bad about that, just trying to understand what it actually is as that can affect other things.
 
Brad, it's not really muddy -- it's just volume. Even when we have the subs pounding the bass is pretty tight and sounds good. The issue is that they're closed in under the rear of the seating area under a sealed plywood floor (risers and steps are all filled in with plywood facing), so the sound waves can't get out into the mainstage area to get to the front seating. The rear rows feel it through the plywood floor mainly. So relocating the subs to an open area will definitely do the trick -- I have just not been allowed to put them in the one or two permanent locations where I think they'll work best.

The L and R are stereo (as are the LR and RR) ... the C is aux-fed, so summed to mono. Yes, it's not true 3-channel -- that would be nice, but per prior post it looks like there are no low-cost driveracks that drive LCR.
 
Another thing I forgot to mention is the cause of this concern ... our venue is small and when we run a production with a live band, the band is too loud to be miced, so we have to set a manual mix by sound-checking the band and then running the vocals on the board "over" the band volume. In order for the band to even hear themselves they are already close to max house volume ... so everything is running pretty hot. I just wanted to keep from bumping over that volume threshold since we're so close to it. Channel compressors should work here, and over time improving the acoustics of the room (primarily bass traps) will help as well.


Attack the problem from the other end. Learn how to manage the band so they don't overwhelm the place. Typically, one place to start is with the drummer. Make sure he/she is using Cool Rod or Hot Rod sticks, which will lower the drum loudness without changing the drummer's "feel.". Another trick is to mic the band and give them headphones for monitoring. If they play too loud, turn up the phones. There are also some great amp simulators that will allow guitar and bass to be run via DI without an amp, so the sound mixer has total control. This is as much psychology as technology.

Another thing that helps keep vocal levels in check when competing with a band, is to put a little fast compression on each vocal channel. It'll help the intellegibility, while lowering peak levels. Be careful because too much can create feedback issues when the compressor opens up (un-gated).
 
Thanks for the feedback -- you've validated just about everything I did/tried.

* the MD was the drummer, and he wanted to play at rock band levels -- period. Nobody, literally nobody, could persuade him otherwise. At the point of tech week, the only alternative was to shut him down, lose the band and delay/cancel the show.

* The MD/drummer used hotrods for most of the numbers. He actually used brushes for a few of the slower numbers. I don't know that he ever used regular sticks. Bass guitar was the biggest issue, resonant midbass in our small theater. The bassist was conscientious, but he couldn't hear it or he would have adjusted it, and I couldn't control it from the board, and you couldn't really give signals during the play.

* MD/drummer had headphones. Initially he insisted on taking vocals only in the monitor, but after we couldn't get his Sennheiser G3 working, we moved to the ALD so they got an open-house mix. I tried playing volume tricks but it didn't have much effect -- but yes, great idea! The theater just doesn't have the proper equipment for band monitors -- it would actually be easier to mic the band.

* The initial plan was to run bass guitar, lead guitar, and keyboards off board with DIs, but that ended up not happening. Again, too little planning too late, and the MD was not interested.

* lead vocals for all songs were compressed 4:1 with +10db gain ... this turned out to be our saviour -- it allowed us to get the vocals comfortably at or above the noise (band) floor and eliminate the painful volume peaks. Compressors are great :)

* I did not use the gates on the vocals, only compression. Would you really use gates on vocals with omni lavaliers?

All in all, once you have the basic equipment and configuration knowledge and technique, it seems to come down to a cooperation or control -- as people have repeatedly noted in this forum. We did not have the equipment to "control" the band, nor did we have the cooperation of the MD. Fortunately our MD moved on to "greener pastures" (he's actually quite an accomplished composer/conductor/musician in the music and entertainment industry) ... and for the next set of shows the theater staff will be choosing MDs who have more modest volume tastes.

Thanks. John
 
* lead vocals for all songs were compressed 4:1 with +10db gain ... this turned out to be our saviour -- it allowed us to get the vocals comfortably at or above the noise (band) floor and eliminate the painful volume peaks. Compressors are great :)

* I did not use the gates on the vocals, only compression. Would you really use gates on vocals with omni lavaliers?

I was thinking of a gated compressor, which is a different beast than a gate. On a gated compressor, the gain is frozen when the audio level falls below a set threshold. It prevents the compressor from cranking open when there is a pause in the audio. It's kind of rare, more often encountered in broadcast compressors. The Aphex Compellor is an example of one.

I wouldn't use a gate on vocals.

As for the drummer, it's sad but I've encountered more than one like that. I've often wondered if electronic drums (Roland?) would be the ultimate solution, but I suspect that some drummers wouldn't touch them. I haven't heard any to know how good/bad sounding they might be.

There are some nice drum isolation booths available, but they are a bit expensive. I'd sure like to have one. Of course, that makes micing the drums and monitor mixes very important.
 
I was thinking of a gated compressor, which is a different beast than a gate. On a gated compressor, the gain is frozen when the audio level falls below a set threshold. It prevents the compressor from cranking open when there is a pause in the audio. It's kind of rare, more often encountered in broadcast compressors. The Aphex Compellor is an example of one.
That sounds kinda interesting ... I just read up on it on their web site ("silence gate"). I wonder if it would have kicked in for our show considering the vocalists were wearing omni lavs boom-style and were standing 10-15 feet in front of the band ... lots of noise floor into the lavs.


As for the drummer, it's sad but I've encountered more than one like that. I've often wondered if electronic drums (Roland?) would be the ultimate solution, but I suspect that some drummers wouldn't touch them. I haven't heard any to know how good/bad sounding they might be.

There are some nice drum isolation booths available, but they are a bit expensive. I'd sure like to have one. Of course, that makes micing the drums and monitor mixes very important.
Believe it or not, the drummer brought his drum shield and we had it set up in front of him. I think it did quiet down the drum kit, especially for the front-row audience members. I've seen them used in orchestra pits in professional theater as well, so they look like a standard technique. But overall I've been told that the band members have to cooperate or else your doomed (... or have to produce a loud rock show instead)

As for electronic drumes, my son's a drummer and doesn't like them (feel and sound) ... but they are a way to practice at night!

Thanks. John
 

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