House Plot Upgrade!

AAMorgan

Member
Hi everyone. I am seeking advice upgrading our house lighting stock and plot. I manage the Vic Lopez Auditorium in Whittier, a 1940s era 2,400-plus seat venue. The facility is owned and operated by the Whittier Union High School District and is used for both school-related and rental events. Our typical events include school shows, symphonic concerts with a bandshell, graduations, dance shows, plays and other assemblies. The stage is large (50' proscenium width x 40' downstage lip to back wall.

The lighting stock is outdated but still kicking. I have no movers or color changers. The current house plot consists of:
10 1k 8" Altman & Kliegel (old!) fresnels used as blue wash, 1E & 3E
10 500w 6" Century & Altman fresnels used as amber wash, 1E & 3E
10 750w 10dg Source 4s used as McCandless frontlight downstage zone, APs
6 1k/575w Altman 6x12 ERS used as McCandless frontlight upstage zone & specials, 1E
6 1k Altman 6x9 ERS used as McCandless frontlight upstage zone, & specials 1E
4 1k 3-unit Altman cyc lights with red/blue/green, 5E
6 1k PAR cans used as high side light, ends of 1E, 2E & 3E
5 500w scoops used as worklights & symphony wash, 1E
4 750w box lights used as worklights & symphony wash, 3E
2 Satellite Followspots in positions far ends of balcony

36 total circuits for stage lighting:
6 SR proscenium wall
9 SR floor pockets
6 SL proscenium wall
9 SL floor pockets
6 AP

Dimming & Control:
17 Strand 6.0kW CD80 dimmers hardwired for house lights
18 Strand Dual 2.4kW CD80 dimmers for stage lighting (86.4kW total)
CD80 Supervisor Rack
ETC ION light board (new!)

As you can see, my dimming & control capabilities are stretched. The stage can be fully lit, but any changes are subtractive and therefore dimmer. I am interested in bright yet more efficient instruments that I could gang together and free up circuits to add MORE instruments to. As it is, I'm almost maxxed out on physical circuits AND wattage per circuit - ugh. I have room in the rack for about 12 more dimmers, but would have to install the electrical runs and circuits also. Perhaps color mixing or scrolling on the wash would free up power? Should I consider removing the work lights from the patch and put them on a switch? I would also like to venture into an i-cue or two (Gafftaper style) to give the crew a "moving" experience.

There you have it. Thoughts, ideas, suggestions are welcome.
Aaron Morgan
Vic Lopez Auditorium
TD, HM, LD, SD, et all.
Whittier High School | Vic Lopez Auditorium
 
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Re: House plot upgrade

I am confused by one part of your post. You say you have 36 circuits for stage lighting, and 18 dimmers. How do you patch the circuits to dimmers? Do you have a patch panel? If so is it located close to the current dimmer rack or far away?

The answer may affect how expensive it would be to add dimmers to the system at this time ( although that should probably be a long term goal )
 
Re: House plot upgrade

This is one of those situations were you are trying to do way to much with to little dimming. Anything that you can do to get dimmers for your show lights would be a good idea if you can do it safely. Anyways send me a PM i might be able to give you some suggestions or even come down to your venue cause i live like 10 minutes away.
 
Wow that's pretty Ugly. You are really tapped out of power. You can improve some by replacing the Altman ERS (Are they 360's? How old?) with Source Fours. Some around here will argue you won't improve that much... but it depends on how old your Altmans are. What about Using 750 Watt S4 PARS with a little frost or PARNels instead of the 20 fresnels in your blue and amber wash. You'll get sacrifice the look a little but you can fix that with a little frost. This would give you more (and whiter) light.

I may get shot for this around here... I've got a friend who says you can't beat the combination of a ParNel with a color scroller for down and side light. A lot of people are critical of PARNels. I purchased a dozen of them and find them very useful. No they aren't a PAR or a Fresnel... but they do put out nice soft light with a handy focus knob.

I've got both source fours equipped with both Seachanger Wash and Seachanger Profile color engines in my theater. They rock. Cost you around $1700-$1800 each but really nice and great color from one fixture. Never change gel again. :dance:

How much money do you have? There are lots of LED's out there. Most aren't bright enough to compete with your conventional fixtures. However some of the more expensive ones can. Get a demo of the ETC Selador LED fixtures. But they are going to cost you a lot.

Other than that, more power is the real answer.
 
Seems to me that you have nailed it when you point to the dimmers as your main issue. So the question is what to do to free up dimmers.

You might consider some theatrical movers. ( By this I mean a tungsten fixture which has framing shutters and an on board dimmer). If you put in two or three VariLite 1Ks in your FOH position you could free up any dimmers you typically use for specials, as well as have another option for wash light control.

As Gafftaper suggests - some kind of color control also frees up dimmers. Life is simpler if it is some kind of CMY control such as SeaChanger, Morpheus SFaders, or the Apollo MXR scroller - but a fixed gel string is better than nothing.
 
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I agree basically with both the guys above.

I would look into some movers. For the price of Seachagers you can get real movers that will give you even more flexilibity.

You might also look into some HES Color Command units instead of Source4 PARs and Seachangers. Same basic idea but much cheaper and much better units. Or you could look into Studio Commands if you are going to spend $1500 a unit.

Consolidation is the key. Look into movers and color changers, not only do they bring you into the 21st century, but they help out your power issue greatly. But do not plug them into dimmers, even dimmers that are set to always on.

There are LED solutions for around $500 a fixture. But you need to be sure they are what you want. Their beams can be narrow, but they make great pipe ends or scenery washers and I have several theaters that I have installed them in that love them.

Seledor is the Rolls Royce of LEDs. You would love them but they will cost you $$$$$.

Do agree that it is time to dump the Altmen and get some Source4 ERS units.

If you have any other questions or would like to discuss what kind of pricing you should look for, drop me a line.

Mike

[email protected]
 
I would look into some movers. For the price of Seachagers you can get real movers that will give you even more flexilibity.

You might also look into some HES Color Command units instead of Source4 PARs and Seachangers. Same basic idea but much cheaper and much better units. Or you could look into Studio Commands if you are going to spend $1500 a unit.

Esoteric and I seem to endlessly debate the usefulness of seachangers vs movers around here. The catch is always that he advises you to buy used gear. This may or may not be an option since you work for a school so check into the purchasing department's policies before you get in trouble and they refuse to pay the bill.

As for pricing, a new Seachanger will run about $1700-$1800 with the fixture and all the extras. A new Color Command will run about the same new and it's an interesting alternative... definitely worth checking out. In my situation I wanted the theaterical lighting functionality that a Seachanger offers. Color Commands are well worth a demo, they are different (in my opinion not better or worse, just different). Also be sure to check out the Wybron Nexeras (another CMY Color mixing light fixture in that price range) I've never used them but the University near me has a bunch of them and they love them.

One other point you can get USED movers for less than a Seachanger, however a moderate quality NEW mover is going to cost more than $3000.

Hey Esoteric we need to write up a standard joint statement that we can issue when someone has questions like this listing pros and cons. :)
 
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Sometimes I do recommend used equipment, but in this case I am talking new.

I just got a client of mine Color Commands for $600 per unit with a power supply (for 8 units) for $1500. Beats the heck out of $1700 each for an inferior unit. New Studio Commands are out there to be had in the area of $2000 a piece.

When I am speaking of used units I will always say used. Otherwise assuming I am talking about new units.

Mike
 
As Esoteric pointed out, I meant to say that Studio Commands are about the same price as a Seachanger. Sorry, didn't mean to be misleading. You should really take a look at all four units: Ocean Optics Seachanger, HES Color Command, HES Studio Command, and Wybron Nexera to decide which meet your needs best.

I disagree with him on Seachangers being "inferior". It depends on what you want to do with them. The HES products provide a lot of instant color bang for your buck. However they don't match your conventional inventory nearly as well as a Seachanger. I can put an R02 gel in a conventional fixture and call up that color on a Seachanger and you can't tell the difference (something very important in my space). You also don't get all the standard functionality of a Source Four with the HES products (shutter cuts, interchangable lenses, gobos, gobo rotators, top hats... etc). I keep 8 Seachangers with gobos in them as a texture wash of the stage. It's an awesome feature for my rep plot that you can't do with a Color Command or Studio Command. Does that make them "inferior"? No just different tools for different jobs. If you are looking to add a lot of saturated color punch for an emphasis on concert lighting then the HES products would be a better way to go. But they won't do pastels as well as a Seachanger, in my opinion.

And again don't miss the Nexera in this debate. They are also an excellent tool to consider. Again get demos!
 
I am with Gaff on this. I use color changers for washes, I never use them for front light or template washes so gobos or anything aren't important to me with color mixing (except in rock and roll apps and then I want to move them so Source4's with Seachangers would be useless). So the ability to get R02 or R60 is useless to me. And I never use front color washes, so the ability to get R80 or R26 in FOH is useless to me.

I meant inferior to the Studio Command in that they don't move. And you get more light out of a Color Command than you would a Source4 with a Seachanger.

Depends on what you want to do as a designer.

Mike
 
How much power is sitting onstage that is not coming from a dimmer? Is there a small company switch or a ton of convience outlets on seperate circuits? Is there a circuit panel onstage that has a 200 amp service and is not using it all? Before you start dropping in movers, you need to answer those questions. Another option for you.... either cheap DJ dimmers (not the greatest reliabilty, but cheap enough to keep plenty of spares) or get a used CD80 pack. I would look into filling your rack, it won't cost as much as you think it will. That being said... is your rack onstage?
 
Lost my reply twice now and switching to Word to create the post.

Thanks for all the suggestions and help so far. A plan is beginning to crystallize, but first some answers. I have about $10k to spend. I do not have a company switch but I do have many convenience outlets on separate circuits on stage right and left. And now, the master plan:

1) Replace the ancient fresnel wash with color changers. Currently I have 8 circuits of blue and amber fresnels on the 1E and 3E only, leaving a dead zone upstage. Instead, I could hang 2 circuits of 750w colorchangers in groups of 3 on the 1E, 3E & 4E totaling 6 circuits. This would result in more light, more fill, less circuits and add color changing capability. Question: which changers can take a gobo or rotators for a pattern wash? Feedback?

2) Replace the 4 circuits of old Altman 1k ERS instruments on the 1E with 575w S4s. The question will be how many S4s it will take to fill across the stage. If 5/6, I will need to use the same 4 circuits for a McCandless hang. If 4 will make it, I could use 2 circuits on the 1E and bring 2 more over to the 3E to fill the upstage zone, which is dark. I will not have left right separation, but will gain light upstage.

3) Add 2 or 3 more dimmers in the rack. The rack is in the basement with a convenient raceway straight up through the floor to the stage right side. And I even have a spare breakout box with 3 pigtails. I’ll have to run some conduit from the raceway, but only for a short distance.

4) Add 2 I-Cues for some rudimentary special focusing. I really want to give the stage crew the opportunity to work with something moving. Later we can upgrade to a more sophisticated instrument.

I probably don’t have the funds to do all this at one time, but it feels like a plan. Future additions include box booms with instruments to fill them, instruments for empty balcony lip positions, and additional side and back light instruments. And more dimmers. A lot more.

Ideas? More suggestions? Feedback? Post away, and thanks!
Aaron Morgan
Vic Lopez Auditorium
 
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Having never done this, would dimmer doubling be an option to get more light upstage? Others may step in with more experience to support or blow holes in that option.
 
He would need to get ETC Sensor dimmers, his CD80s would not support it, to my knowledge.
 
Update!

After much research, demos and consultation, I think I have a plan. I am getting set to replace all 10 of my 9" blue wash fresnels and 8 of my 6" amber wash fresnels with 18 (6 on 3 battens) of the new Vivid-R Seladors. Hopefully this will accomplish what my fresnel wash was doing, add more colors to the mix, and free up the dimmers the fresnels were using. I had a demo of the original Seladors and they were comparable to the light output from my 9" fresnels, and I think the new Vivid-R Seladors will be even brighter. I also plan to replace my lekos with Source 4s in the same go - hopefully grouping the purchase will get me a greater discount than if I did it separately.

As a reminder, I have been squeezing instruments and power for all they can give me. I have the stage wash, some side light from par cans on the ends of the first 3 electrics, front light in a warm/cool McCandless focus from 8 10dg. S4s in the APs at a very high angle and 8 old 6x12s on the first electric for the upstage zone, and 12 cells of Altman cyc lights in RBG.

If this was YOUR space, what kind of a house plot would you throw up there? I have a 48' proscenium and would like to try to hang at 18'. We do a lot of dance-like shows, symphonies and kiddie shows. By bringing in the Seladors I will open up 8 dimmers. What would you do?

And if anyone has any thoughts, dire warnings, or advice about my Selador plan, please chime in.

Open to any advice you have & thanks!
Aaron Morgan
 
Something you might want to consider, if you're replacing a warm wash and a cool wash, is instead of going with all Vivid-R, go with half Vivid-Fire to replace your warms, and half Vivid-Ice to replace your cools. That would give you the ability to do extremely saturated washes, both cool and warm, while just Vivid-R will give you mediocre saturated washes. On the other hand, if everything is Vivid-R, you can have medium washes at twice the intensity.

ETC has a pretty good video on their Fire and Ice fixtures. If you haven't seen it yet, check it out. Until I watched it, I thought they had no place in theatre, but afterwards they now seem to me to replace standard wash fixtures.
 
I can't imagine those selandor fixtures are very cost efficient....

For color washs I am a big fan of s4 pars with morpheus M-Faders, or coemar iWash 575s....
 
Selador can be very cost-effective, as many new LED wash fixtures can be. It allows a facility to expand their functionality without having to spend tens of thousands of dollars on new dimmer racks and electrical.

There are small savings to be made in electricity and perishables, but the big savings are on the electrical infrastructure.

I've got a project I'm working on right now and we're very seriously considering spending $20k on LED's in place of installing $35k of new dimming, electrical, fixtures, and perishables.
 

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