How Much Power?

I agree with TJ. Don't waste your money on <$400 speakers, otherwise you will be disappointed with the results. The SRM450 is what I'd go for on a tight budget. They will do the job.

Don't get lost in the weeds with the inverse square law. In indoor spaces, beyond a certain distance, the SPL does not reduce at the rate prescribed by the inverse square law.
 
Very little talk about how flat the speakers are and how much distortion may occur due to undersized HF throat sizes. There are big reasons to stay with established brands as compared to the cheap products that are out there. Electronics will clip when over-driven, but are usual pretty clean below that level. Not so with speakers. We talk about electrical watts, but not about acoustic watts. For example, in a compression driver, distortion occurs when you exceed 0.1 acoustic watts per square inch of throat area at it's tightest point. Luckily, 0.1 acoustic watts is pretty darn loud! However, when choosing a speaker system, you want to obtain one that has reasonable horn throat dimensions, which is usually found on you better systems, but not on the cheap music-store stuff. Remember, speaker distortion levels can be way above 20% even while within the power range of the speaker.
In other words, DON'T cheap-out on the speakers.

Article on "sound power - acoustic watts
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_power
 
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Sound characteristics also change with volume ... underpowered speakers will sound like they are "screaming" when you turn them up enough ... not pleasant. I prefer the "broadway" approach of bringing in a grossly overpowered PA system and running it at relatively low volume to produce the most accurate and full sound possible. You can never have too much speaker power ... you can only use too much speaker power.

Whatever you get, I would suggest not less than 12" woofers on the mains ... the large bass drivers will give you more bass, therefore fuller sound.

Try listening to the speakers at low, medium, and very loud volumes, close and far away from the speakers, to make sure you like the way they sound at each level and distance.

I wouldn't get hung up on the SPL ... just listen to the speakers, either in the store, or find sound people in your area, ask what they use, and drop by during their performances to listen to their equipment in action.

Fyi, 85db is my rule-of-thumb threshold for parent/family audiences. But that is at the sound table.
 
Let me try to take what you guys are teaching me and see if I can apply it. Here are two speakers:

The Mackie Thump12 ($299.99)

and

The Behringer B212D ($249.99)

(I realize these are both well below the cut-off prices most of you are suggesting, but if the only actual options are $400+, I can tell you that we will simply go on using the schools' crappy, unreliable gear. My board of directors will not pay $800 for two speakers, end of story.)

Now, the Mackie is pitched as a 1000W speaker, while the Behringer is pitched as a 550W speaker. Until this thread, I would have naïvely assumed that meant the Mackie would be louder than the Behringer. However, in their specs, both are listed as "Maximum Peak SPL 125dB." The Mackie has a somewhat wider frequency range. Other than that, their specs look (to me) more or less comparable.

Based on those identical SPL numbers, would I be safe in assuming that these two speakers are going to put out about the same amount of sound as each other?
 
My board of directors will not pay $800 for two speakers, end of story.
How about 1 reasonable speaker this year and 1 next year?

I have spent a lot of time in the volunteer trenches in my life and I continue to be amazed at how much effort, inconvenience, and often poor quality output is tolerated/expected to avoid a small financial expenditure. Each of us has to decide what our own thresholds are, but for me, there is only so far I will go investing my time and sanity dealing with/propping up a situation where apparently no one else values my efforts enough to make a small investment to fix them. I just left my church of 15 years over this issue.
 
Here's where I get to show some of my inexperience: where, typically, does the sound table go? Middle of the house? If so, that 85dB is a very comforting number, much below the 95dB I had been working from.
With sincere respect, you're still focusing on the wrong thing - a volume number. It doesn't matter if you get 85dBA slow at the back of the house, 95dBA slow midfield or anything else if it sounds terrible, and numbers are truly meaningless unless you have a meter to tell you what you subjectively desire at least initially until you get a feel for how loud 90dB sounds like.

I have a friend that works in a situation with about 20 of the Mackie Thumps. He calls them Mackie "Thuds". They sound terrible and are not particularly resilient. I have not heard the Behringer, but can't believe they're any better.
 
I feel I should add a bit more about our price point and needs, as I am extremely grateful for all the helpful advice and guidance I am getting here, and would not want anyone to think I am not taking his or her recommendations seriously.

We just wrapped a show ("The Little Mermaid") done in a very typical venue for us: a middle school auditorium. We did six shows and sold about 1,500 tickets. For the first weekend, the sound system hummed like a buzzsaw. I tried everything I knew to make it go away, but what I knew wasn't much. I actually run the lights for our shows. My partner, a local biology teacher, runs the sound. She is a terrific operator and can handle wireless mikes and her mixer effortlessly. But she is not an audio engineer. Neither am I, but I am an electronics hobbiest (amateur radio station WA4LDA), so the job of solving sound problems falls into my lap. We ran a long AC cord to the rack, to tie the mixer and amps chassis grounds as close together as we could, and that helped a fair bit. But when the hum persisted, I did some reading and bought an Ebtech Hum Eliminator (a pair of audio transformers with a bit of RC shaping adding). Worked like a charm! Hum just vanished and the audio quality was vastly improved. But, next up, the audio on one of our two channels out to the house (one being mikes-plus-music, the other being music-only, for the stage monitors) kept cutting out intermittently. We traced this to a problem in the school's rack mixer and solved it by moving to a different input channel. At another point, one of the monitors just died. We got it working again, but I really don't know how.

The context within which we "cope" with these technical problems is a big part of what is driving me to get the company to buy its own gear. We have extremely limited time in the school. For our six-show run, here's all the access we had:

Saturday, load-in from 0900 to 1500. Techies are running cable and hoping things work at all. At 1500, we are evicted.
Sunday, no access.
Monday-Thursday, tech week, 1730-2200. Techies are helping with rehearsal. If there is a break for notes or a "take five," techies try to solve problems like hum, unreliable connections, etc. At 2200, we are evicted (and must take anything we don't want the students to break with us).
Friday, first show, 1730-2300. Curtain is at 1930 which means this is the techies' only unbroken two-hour opportunity to fix problems.
Saturday, two shows, 1230-1630, 1830-2300. Again, they evict us at 1630 and 2300. Techies have almost no time to deal with problems.
Sunday-Thursday, no access.
Friday, third show, 1730-2300. Curtain is at 1930 which means the techies have only two hours to fix whatever the school screwed up during the previous four days.
Saturday, two shows, 1130-1630, 1830-2300. Again, they evict us at 1630. Techies have almost no time to deal with problems. Then we strike and it's over.

So here's my point: we already do our shows with lousy sound, and that's not yet a big issue. What is a big issue is that the equipment we are forced to deal with is both unreliable and not under our control. I would happily accept mediocre sound (since that's what we have now) if it meant I could take the school's equipment out of the loop entirely, and have all the time I need to fix problems before and between shows. My partner is of the same opinion. Just before Show Number Six, literally ten minutes before curtain, one of the school's channels died again. She was at her mixer with a hand-held radio, while I had another hand-held, squeezing myself between Prince Eric's ship and the audio rack, madly trying to find whatever bent wire, pulled plug, or bumped knob was about to cancel our final show for us. We found it and we fixed it, but it was, well... not much fun.

Someday, when I win the lottery, I will donate thousands of dollars' worth of high-end gear to this company. Until then, our problems are mostly about access to unreliable equipment of inferior quality. If we could solve the problems of access and reliability by owning our own equipment of inferior quality, that would be a major step up for all of us, one we would happily take, even if it meant putting off getting better quality sound for someday down the road.

So I just wanted everyone to know I am not ignoring your advice about pricing. I'm just forced to stay focused on the problems at the top of our list.
 
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How about 1 reasonable speaker this year and 1 next year?

I like your thinking, but these folks don't work that way. What I might be able to do is get two speakers this year, a new mixer next year, and some stage mikes the year after that. They like to see return on investment right away. One speaker alone would probably leave them thinking I had talked them into wasting money, and then they wouldn't buy much else on my advice after that.

I have spent a lot of time in the volunteer trenches in my life and I continue to be amazed at how much effort, inconvenience, and often poor quality output is tolerated/expected to avoid a small financial expenditure. Each of us has to decide what our own thresholds are, but for me, there is only so far I will go investing my time and sanity dealing with/propping up a situation where apparently no one else values my efforts enough to make a small investment to fix them. I just left my church of 15 years over this issue.

I feel your pain. I went to a lot of trouble (with the help of another ControlBooth member) to set up and demonstrate a far cheaper, far superior lighting system for a local middle school. The PTA was impressed and donated the money to buy the new console. End result? The school system electricians took one look at it and said, "You're not allowed to use anything we didn't approve." The PTA literally had to take their donation back.

In this case, my angst is all due to lack of access, not lack of quality. The schools' audio systems already are forcing us to work with inferior sound. I just can't keep promising to make it even work at all, under the conditions the schools impose on us. As I said above, if I can spend $500 to replace inaccessible mediocre gear with accessible mediocre gear, that will be a major move up.
 
The context within which we "cope" with these technical problems is a big part of what is driving me to get the company to buy its own gear. We have extremely limited time in the school. For our six-show run, here's all the access we had:

Saturday, load-in from 0900 to 1500. Techies are running cable and hoping things work at all. At 1500, we are evicted.
Sunday, no access.
Monday-Thursday, tech week, 1730-2200. Techies are helping with rehearsal. If there is a break for notes or a "take five," techies try to solve problems like hum, unreliable connections, etc. At 2200, we are evicted (and must take anything we don't want the students to break with us).
Friday, first show, 1730-2300. Curtain is at 1930 which means this is the techies' only unbroken two-hour opportunity to fix problems.
Saturday, two shows, 1230-1630, 1830-2300. Again, they evict us at 1630 and 2300. Techies have almost no time to deal with problems.
Sunday-Thursday, no access.
Friday, third show, 1730-2300. Curtain is at 1930 which means the techies have only two hours to fix whatever the school screwed up during the previous four days.
Saturday, two shows, 1130-1630, 1830-2300. Again, they evict us at 1630. Techies have almost no time to deal with problems. Then we strike and it's over.

So here's my point: we already do our shows with lousy sound, and that's not yet a big issue. What is a big issue is that the equipment we are forced to deal with is both unreliable and not under our control. I would happily accept mediocre sound (since that's what we have now) if it meant I could take the school's equipment out of the loop entirely, and have all the time I need to fix problems before and between shows. My partner is of the same opinion. Just before Show Number Six, literally ten minutes before curtain, one of the school's channels died again. She was at her mixer with a hand-held radio, while I had another hand-held, squeezing myself between Prince Eric's ship and the audio rack, madly trying to find whatever bent wire, pulled plug, or bumped knob was about to cancel our final show for us. We found it and we fixed it, but it was, well... not much fun.

You might want to look into somewhere that gives you better access and control. Another theater in the area where you can work as needed during your time (not getting kicked out at an arbitrary time) and somewhere that you can secure when you are not present.
Lots of options, but don't know what is in the area. You may end up paying more (or at all) for the space but if you can either rent a system for shows, or get a space that has a system, then you may end up saving headaches to make the change in location worth it.

Also you may be able to talk to the location about loosening up some of the requirements. Not sure but I think you said it's a school so they are probably limited by things like school schedules and such and that's why you have such a hard time.

If you can get a group together renting a small store front somewhere and putting in a black box is not unduly expensive. But you need to keep a very close eye on expenses because it can get out of hand quickly.
 
You might want to look into somewhere that gives you better access and control. Another theater in the area where you can work as needed during your time (not getting kicked out at an arbitrary time) and somewhere that you can secure when you are not present.
Man, I would love that. The schools we use are within our budget, and there really aren't any other places in the county with DMX lighting that we can come close to paying for.

If you can get a group together renting a small store front somewhere and putting in a black box is not unduly expensive. But you need to keep a very close eye on expenses because it can get out of hand quickly.
We talk about this from time to time, but mostly in a pipe-dreamy kind of way. I do keep my eyes open for possibilities, but you're right about costs.
 
Basically, most powered speakers will be loud enough for your needs. Some will sound better than others. The only way to find out is to listen to them. Both of those speakers you posted are probably available at Guitar center, so go give them a listen. Bring some music on your phone that is the style you will be using them for, then crank it up and go stand at the back of the room. Cheap speakers like that always lie about power output, and often don't sound great, but If it saves you a lot of time in troubleshooting and sounds at least as good as the house system, then it may be a very functional solution.

Remember if you don't already have XLR cables and power cable extensions, and speaker stands(preferably tall ones) you will need to fit those into your budget as well.
 
Basically, most powered speakers will be loud enough for your needs. Some will sound better than others. The only way to find out is to listen to them. Both of those speakers you posted are probably available at Guitar center, so go give them a listen. Bring some music on your phone that is the style you will be using them for, then crank it up and go stand at the back of the room. Cheap speakers like that always lie about power output, and often don't sound great, but If it saves you a lot of time in troubleshooting and sounds at least as good as the house system, then it may be a very functional solution.
Good suggestion. I'll do it.

Remember if you don't already have XLR cables and power cable extensions, and speaker stands(preferably tall ones) you will need to fit those into your budget as well.
Ah! I have included line items for enough XLR cable and stands, but didn't know about the power cords. Thanks.

Are there any sites that publish objective reviews of this kind of gear?
 
All you need are common extension cords. It doesn't take anything exotic.
 
All you need are common extension cords. It doesn't take anything exotic.
Even so, I appreciate the reminder, as the folks who use the shopping list I'll put together will be technically ignorant artists, not engineers. They get nervous if anything, however small, is found to be missing later.
 
I just like to be very detailed when I plan things. There have been plenty of times when I used to work in low-budget theaters, where something is overlooked and I ended up going to Home Depot and buying it out of pocket, or having to beg and borrow from other people.
 
Let me try to take what you guys are teaching me and see if I can apply it. Here are two speakers:

The Mackie Thump12 ($299.99)

and

The Behringer B212D ($249.99)

(I realize these are both well below the cut-off prices most of you are suggesting, but if the only actual options are $400+, I can tell you that we will simply go on using the schools' crappy, unreliable gear. My board of directors will not pay $800 for two speakers, end of story.)

Now, the Mackie is pitched as a 1000W speaker, while the Behringer is pitched as a 550W speaker. Until this thread, I would have naïvely assumed that meant the Mackie would be louder than the Behringer. However, in their specs, both are listed as "Maximum Peak SPL 125dB." The Mackie has a somewhat wider frequency range. Other than that, their specs look (to me) more or less comparable.

Based on those identical SPL numbers, would I be safe in assuming that these two speakers are going to put out about the same amount of sound as each other?

The difference between the two speakers is this: the Mackie should be called "the THUD", for the sound it will make when you pitch it in the bin. The B-word speaker is slightly better and when you realize that you're still disappointed, you will still have $50 in your pocket.

The wrong product at the right price is still the wrong product. Buy once, cry once.

Watts measure an instantaneous amount of power being either consumed or generated. The relationship between the power consumed and the resultant acoustic output is not a linear constant; it varies for each and every different transducer or loudspeaker system. Also as a matter of "rating" loudspeakers the numeric figure given in Watts is often misleading; a "1000 Watt" rating is for how long? Can we apply that current all day, or for a few milliseconds before the voice coil fails? 1000 Watts of what? Pink noise with a 6dB crest factor, "programme" or a sine wave?

Likewise most peak output ratings should be viewed with skepticism. At what frequency and for how long? At what distortion level? You will find these are hard specifications to come be even if there IS a specification for them...

Thanks to marketing there is a huge amount of specifications that still do not allow meaningful, direct comparisons between products. As The Fire Sign Theatre once said "everything you know is wrong." :eek: Okay, not quite, but the without knowing how a given published specification has been arrived at, there is a semi-deliberate obfuscation of physics.

So to conclude my little sermonette, Watts are for space heaters and light bulbs and figuring out your power bill. As something directly meaningful about loudspeaker output? Naw...
 
The difference between the two speakers is this: the Mackie should be called "the THUD", for the sound it will make when you pitch it in the bin. The B-word speaker is slightly better and when you realize that you're still disappointed, you will still have $50 in your pocket.

The wrong product at the right price is still the wrong product. Buy once, cry once.

Watts measure an instantaneous amount of power being either consumed or generated. The relationship between the power consumed and the resultant acoustic output is not a linear constant; it varies for each and every different transducer or loudspeaker system. Also as a matter of "rating" loudspeakers the numeric figure given in Watts is often misleading; a "1000 Watt" rating is for how long? Can we apply that current all day, or for a few milliseconds before the voice coil fails? 1000 Watts of what? Pink noise with a 6dB crest factor, "programme" or a sine wave?

Likewise most peak output ratings should be viewed with skepticism. At what frequency and for how long? At what distortion level? You will find these are hard specifications to come be even if there IS a specification for them...

Thanks to marketing there is a huge amount of specifications that still do not allow meaningful, direct comparisons between products. As The Fire Sign Theatre once said "everything you know is wrong." :eek: Okay, not quite, but the without knowing how a given published specification has been arrived at, there is a semi-deliberate obfuscation of physics.

So to conclude my little sermonette, Watts are for space heaters and light bulbs and figuring out your power bill. As something directly meaningful about loudspeaker output? Naw...

So... since they quote the same maximum peak SPL, what can I conclude from that?
 
So... since they quote the same maximum peak SPL, what can I conclude from that?
That both their marketing departments agree on this being a good number for marketing targets this month. (And not much more than that. The vast majority of loudspeaker specifications are bogus marketing hype and precious little more.)
Edit: Speakers are for listening to, demoing before purchasing, trying before you buy then buy once cry once, NOT for reading about.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.
 
So... since they quote the same maximum peak SPL, what can I conclude from that?

That below a certain price point, it's Whose Line Is It Anyway -- everything's made up and the points don't matter.

Since you're linking to powered speakers, let's look at the QSC K-series, one of my favorite powered speaker lines on the market. Notice that they put the same 1000W amplifier in each and every speaker, even the sub. This is for economies of scale in manufacturing more than anything else. They can market their 8" cabinet as a 1000W speaker, but that's more of a reflection of the amplifier than it is the driver element. As stated before, even on passive speakers the wattage ratings are misleading because they don't take into account efficiency, but active speakers really make wattages completely meaningless.

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In contrast, depending on how you choose to look at it, here's a 700W speaker that puts out 145dB.

So what, pray tell, does a better speaker get you?

A larger driver element with extended low-end response and better pattern control. It also gets you a couple extra dB of headroom, which most people will never notice with a meter. What they will notice with their ear is that with a smaller speaker, they cannot "feel" the sound like they would instinctively expect to and may perceive that as a quieter speaker, which then they drive into clipping and distortion trying to feel the low-end that that size of speaker cannot possibly produce.

When I recommend the K-series to someone, I usually go for the K10 or K12, not because of SPL, but because of pattern control. The K8 is better for a small, crowded room where the speakers are immediately in front of a crowd and taking advantage of the 105° conical pattern. Any larger rooms benefit more from a K12 because it keeps the sound on the audience and off of the walls and ceiling.

Shifting gears a little bit, let's talk about SPL over a distance.

An ideal line source attenuates at -3dB per doubling of distance from the speaker. If you are 60' away and hearing 100dB, then in an ideal laboratory environment, the speakers within an array couple together to produce a wavefront that at 120' would be apprx 97dB. At 240', 94dB.

An ideal point source attenuates at -6dB per doubling of distance. That means at 120', you would hear 94dB. At 240', 88dB.

Traffic is a good example of a line source. The reason highways are particularly obnoxious to residents nearby is because once you get enough cars on the road, the nature of the noise source behaves more like a line source and the noise carries farther. Not because it's all that much louder, but because the noise from each of the vehicles is coupling together as they scurry down the roadway. So at midnight or noon, traffic behaves more like a point source and attenuates to a much quieter level to the neighborhoods next to the highway. At rush hour though, it acts like a line source and in an ideal environment attenuates apprx half as much as at lunchtime. The noise carries much farther and is much more of a nuisance.

What does this all mean?

SPL matters in larger environments much more than in smaller. The intensity of the noise source will vary significantly near the speaker, no matter what. In a small room, a difference of 3-6dB is generally insignificant, though it will be audible. However, as the noise propagates away from the speaker, that 3-6dB can have consequences for a larger group of people. If we have a point source and take the chunk of space between 60' and 120' and say it has mean SPL of 85dB, that's quite a bit of audience space that falls into a 6dB window, between 82-88dB. You may be incinerating the people sitting directly in front of the speaker, but at this 60-120' distance, you have what would be considered an acceptable amount of drop-off between the first row and the back.

On the other hand, if we stick that 6dB window at 85dB between 10' and 20' away from the speaker, well now it doesn't really matter what you do. Unless you're holding your performance in a shoe box, someone in the front row is either getting incinerated or someone in the back can't hear. This is because if we have 88dB at 10' with a point source, we have 82dB at 20', and 76dB at 40'. If the first row is at 10' and the last row is at 40', it will be perceived as literally half as loud in the back row as in the first row. (Human perception is 10dB = twice as loud)

Put all of this together, and if you're buying a system for a rock and roll show in a stadium, you want a line array so your sound makes it across the field, and the farther you get away from your stage, that extra 3 or 6dB between one speaker model and another begins to really, really matter because at a distance it affects a much greater footprint of the field and of the bleachers.

This is the long way of saying that for a smaller environment, there any number of factors that take precedence over pure loudness. Distortion, pattern control, headroom before clipping, low-end response and whether you can feel the <80Hz content, how the speaker is aimed within the room, how much distance is between the speaker and the first row, how distance is between the first row and the last row, if the system is tuned and delayed properly or used with out-of-the-box settings, how good the speaker sounds in a blind demo compared to the runner up, and of course -- the quality of the signal chain and the microphones. A $1,000,000 PA still sounds like a bad car stereo if you put $35 generic headset mic's in front of it or if the faders on your mixer are all dusty and crackle whenever you move them.
 

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