How to rid the place of bad equipment

So it's a 147' deep by 65' wide room with a 9'-10' ceiling and the system is used primarily for speech. I can see why the existing system is problematic and this sounds like a great application for a distributed system.

With the relatively large room you probably have to have the front speakers quite loud to get sound to the back. However, the low ceiling prevents you from getting them up higher to where you can get good coverage of the room and almost certainly results in a lot of sound hitting the ceiling and rear wall. This system was probably way down in level and had poor intelligibility further back in the room. Based on what I've seen elsewhere, the rear speakers were quite likely an attempt to address this, but just as in almost all of those other cases, ended up causing as many or more problems than they solved.

It also seems that you have primarily mono sources but a stereo (and with the rear speakers almost a quadraphonic) configuration, meaning that you have the same signal coming from multiple speakers. This results in all sorts of interactions in the listening space as at any one point the listener is getting the same signal from four different sources but with the four signals arriving at different times and with different levels. These timing and level relationships differ at every point, meaning you get different interactions everywhere, some of which may be rather undesired. For speech, in some ways you may actually be better to have it come from just one speaker.

A distributed system uses many small speakers distributed throughout the space with each speaker covering a small are. This places the listeners closer to the speakers and allows the sound from the speakers to directed at the listeners rather than at where they aren't. This can not only reduce the levels and echoes on the stage, and thus help address your feedback issues, but could also improve intelligibility so that people better understand what is said.

Unfortunately, many people seem to look down on distributed systems, perhaps seeing them as old technology or relating them to inexpensive installations they've seen. However, none of the physics involved has changed and with some of the current processing and high quality ceiling or small speakers available, they can be very effective. If you want to get real fancy, and have the budget, you could even look at a distributed system with electronic acoustical enhancement systems (LARES, LCS VRAS/Meyer Constellation. ERES, etc.) that can help emulate different acoustical environments, letting the space sound like a lecture hall or a cathedral at the push of a button.

Another alternative would be to use one of the steerable arrays that are now available. such as the Duran Audio Intellivox or Renkus-Heinz Iconyx. These use advanced digital processing to control and steer the speaker's vertical coverage, in some cases into a very tightly defined pattern that can help keep the sound aimed at the audience.

If you don't have a large budget then I would guess that a properly designed and installed distributed system might be the best approach for this application.
 
So the problems coming from the fact that 1. the speakers are not positioned correctly meaning that there are so many other problems. Would using Yamaha's SFXs for one of the halls be better? But won't that cause futher feedback? I was thinking we should re-aim the speakers at the rear and turn down the rear speakers after they have been re focused. But meanwhile I am going to shut off those rear un focused speakers which shoot on to the stage:!: And..... I'll turn up the front speakers ;)
 
It would take physically being in the room to really make any really accurate assessment of the situation. The preferred approach for this type of functional application is traditionally a flown center cluster. However, the low ceiling height here makes this quite impractical.

You are simply going to have difficulty getting good coverage of the congregation, good intelligibility for them and good gain before feedback on stage in that space using traditional full range speaker cabinets. Attempts to address any one of these areas may negatively impact the others, for example adding rear speakers to address the coverage and drop off in level at the back of the room is most likely hurting the intelligibility and feedback.

About all you can do without a dramatically different system approach is to keep playing with various combinations of speaker and microphone locations and aiming to try to optimize what you have. It may even end up that a single speaker off to one side and aimed at the person furthest away in the opposite corner of the room with the system run at as low a level as practical gives the best result.
 
I might suggest selling the rear speakers and amplifier and buying some heavy curtains for at least the back wall.
The sound can then travel in waves down the hall and be absorbed into the back wall, not reflected back.
I find that thinking in terms of water waves in a pool can give a visual idea of what is occurring.
I also find that a few curtains can have a dramatically positive effect on the acoustic in a way that no amount of electronics can.
Acoustics is as much art as science and it is often easier to play around with different options in the venue to see which works best, trying some curtains for example is a low cost option to look at.
 
I believe that we have found the problem 1. There was nobody controling when i started2. the levels were too high 3. There were multiple mics oncausing echo 4. A mic in front of the speaker :( for singing \ 5. Not a good place to control


Solutions
1. Took over
2. Adjusted them as they went although now that the guy in charge is back says leave it until theres feedback (who would want to do that?!?)
3. turned on nesscary ones when needed
4. Notified the head of the choir to move the mic
5. Trying to move it but it won't happen, wish they built a control room when they built the hall
 
Solutions
2. Adjusted them as they went although now that the guy in charge is back says leave it until theres feedback (who would want to do that?!?)
3. turned on nesscary ones when needed
As the FOH mixing board operator you should in general turn mics off when they're being used. The only exception might be cardiod mics which are not directly in front of a noisy area. But omni mics, definitely, never just leave them on. Part of live mixing is continually adjusting input volumes and EQ, so if you have to sit their intently with your fingers on the faders, that's normal.

4. Notified the head of the choir to move the mic
If this was an omni mic, it cannot be anywhere near the front of a speaker unless you have a good EQ ready to squash feedback frequencies.

5. Trying to move it but it won't happen, wish they built a control room when they built the hall
If you can't get the sound board into the acoustic center of the room, you should at least understand how the center of the room hears the sound compared to where you are on the side. I would suggest playing a familiar CD and walk around the room to understand how it sounds in different place. Try it softly, then try it really loud. See if it's too soft or too loud in some places, etc. Then you can mix for the audience even though you're in a different location.
 
The one for the choir is a wireless microphone (a rather sensitive one)
I'll guess I'll have to test the speakers with the music. But who knows how to deal with someone who has to take over the show and have feedback squeeling in your ear for testing
 
I think you mean resonance. In a sense, yes it is, but it's a bit more complicated than that. It's a combination of frequencies near the mic's resonant frequency put out by the loudspeakers. The mic picks up that signal, in a way amplifies it (resonance, but it's not really amplification), sends it down the signal chain to the amps, amplified once again, goes to the speakers, wash, rinse, repeat. At least that's the watered down version I was given a long time ago. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will be along to correct me.

Therefore more open mics on stage means a greater liklihood of something feeding back.

As a general practice, whenever I'm mixing, if a mic isn't being used, I mute it. It gets fun when you have to keep track of a script, ride faders and EQ, and worry about unmuting things when your board doesn't have lights that tell you when a channel is muted :(
 
As a general practice, whenever I'm mixing, if a mic isn't being used, I mute it. It gets fun when you have to keep track of a script, ride faders and EQ, and worry about unmuting things when your board doesn't have lights that tell you when a channel is muted :(

Our CFX-20 does not have mute lights, and subsequently I will never mute an input channel during a show ... too many times I have been caught wondering why I can't get sound out of a channel, only to remember 30 seconds later to check the mute. Even two seconds later and you've already dropped one or two of your actor's lines! Having "discoverable" visual indicators are key to convenient and error-free operation.

If you don't want to drop the fader all the way because it will get lost in the rest of the turned-off faders, then keep it up half an inch so you know which one it is. At -40 or -50db no one will hear anything out of that channel. I will tend to do this for scene changes, i.e. bump up all faders a bit so I know who's coming on in this scene.

Also, get into the practise of color-coding your faders to match the color-coding on your Excel spreadsheet mic map (which you should make), or script notations. Use spike tape or colored console tape if you have it (findtape.com), second choice is colored highlighters on console, gaff or masking tape. This "best practice" works wonders for my sanity ...!
 
Our CFX-20 does not have mute lights, and subsequently I will never mute an input channel during a show ... too many times I have been caught wondering why I can't get sound out of a channel, only to remember 30 seconds later to check the mute.
I don't even look at the lights most of the time, I just feel the mute switch position.
But then again, not everyone is that hardcore.;)
 

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