How to turn a $20 PAR into a $300 PAR

[rsmentele]

I saw this product being announced recently:

http://www.onsiteled.com/home.html

While I have no clue what the price is, I think it's still kind of silly to spend a bunch of money on an LED replacement lamp for a cheap metal can... I understand that some folks might REALLY want to keep the 'look' of a traditional PAR, and of course the whole 'not replacing dimmers' thing, but with so many options on the market for LED now, I wonder how popular these really are going to be....

 

[microstar]

Lot of churches have PAR56 and PAR64 fixtures on dimmers. If you can't run DMX cabling or wireless DMX, then mains dimmable LED's are a reasonable solution since the incandescent PAR lamps have pretty much gone away. I've been quoted $349 for the OnSite LED. Here is a bit newer unit https://www.verbatimlighting.com/home which I've tested with acceptable results. Of course what is acceptable
is always subject to interpretation depending on the circumstances. The Verbatim was quite a bit less money and does not have a fan.

 

[techieman33]

If I needed conventional pars then I would just buy source 4 pars. They're usually under $50 these days on the used market. The LED drop-in kits can give some weird results with gel. And I haven't seen any that easily let you change the beam pattern. So IMO there really only viable for white light and when you know you only need one beam pattern. Otherwise the cost gets out of control to the point of being cheaper to just buy a whole new fixture to fit your needs.

 

[ship]

Funny full circle thing.
At one point entire companies were established in doing the retrofit of incandescent fixtures to Quartz Halogen.

Sorry, I don't have the PDF catalogues on this computer' perhaps tomorrow I will forward home a PDF of the upgrade catalogues, otherwise the catalogues in qustion were on CB' Wikkee if such a part of the website can be found.

It was early 1970's or late 1960's and Quartz/Haloten was not yet invented to be a single ended lamp, it was only available in a RSC lamp base. Efficiency given a long filament of the RSC lamp verses a fairly compact incandescent lamp filament by this time is questionable, but it was the new hot "upgrade" thing back in the day.

I have a few duplicate especially Kliegl lights in the museum that are the same, except one is the incandescent version, the other the Quartz/Halogen version.

Funny more would see the linage of a venerable say 1936 incandescent 6" Fresnel, that survived or got "upgraded" to Quartz/Halogen RSC upgrade, than got upgraded to a single ended P-28s lamp base more efficient system in having to buy a upgrade the fixture it once already had. Than if available in upgrade kits, became upgraded now to a LED upgrade kit for it.

Says something about the 6" Fresnel in concept of constantly upgraded, yet so few theater "upgrades" are installing them. PAR Can what ever the type for past fight in my opinion will never replace it.

 

[Scenemaster60]

They show this in a cheap PAR can. For that application, this makes little sense to me. The far more sensible use for this type of retrofit is in architectural fixtures that use PAR lamps. The church where I work has 20 recessed spots that use 500 watt PAR56 NSP lamps. I have a legacy supply of lamps to get me through another 2-3 years, but eventually we will be faced with either replacing all 20 at a likely cost of $1k+ per fixture once you buy a new recessed LED luminiere, rent and assemble scaffolding, run data lines, reconfigure the dimmer racks/wiring for constant power, and factor in all other labor and materials, etc., OR seeing if a mains dimmed LED retrofit might serve our needs. The biggest issue for us will be low-end dimming. Switching out the dimmers for reverse-phase dimming MAY help with that issue as well. There is a market for this type of retrofit if it performs well.

 

[microstar]

They show this in a cheap PAR can. For that application, this makes little sense to me. The far more sensible use for this type of retrofit is in architectural fixtures that use PAR lamps. The church where I work has 20 recessed spots that use 500 watt PAR56 NSP lamps. I have a legacy supply of lamps to get me through another 2-3 years, but eventually we will be faced with either replacing all 20 at a likely cost of $1k+ per fixture once you buy a new recessed LED luminiere, rent and assemble scaffolding, run data lines, reconfigure the dimmer racks/wiring for constant power, and factor in all other labor and materials, etc., OR seeing if a mains dimmed LED retrofit might serve our needs. The biggest issue for us will be low-end dimming. Switching out the dimmers for reverse-phase dimming MAY help with that issue as well. There is a market for this type of retrofit if it performs well.

I agree completely.
See this thread https://www.controlbooth.com/threads/led-equivalent.47624/#post-421533 where it was discussed at length. Cost was about $170 I was told.

 

[macsound]

They show this in a cheap PAR can. For that application, this makes little sense to me. The far more sensible use for this type of retrofit is in architectural fixtures that use PAR lamps. The church where I work has 20 recessed spots that use 500 watt PAR56 NSP lamps. I have a legacy supply of lamps to get me through another 2-3 years, but eventually we will be faced with either replacing all 20 at a likely cost of $1k+ per fixture once you buy a new recessed LED luminiere, rent and assemble scaffolding, run data lines, reconfigure the dimmer racks/wiring for constant power, and factor in all other labor and materials, etc., OR seeing if a mains dimmed LED retrofit might serve our needs. The biggest issue for us will be low-end dimming. Switching out the dimmers for reverse-phase dimming MAY help with that issue as well. There is a market for this type of retrofit if it performs well.

I know this thread is about the LED replacement, but your solution might be what is mentioned above - used Source Four PARs. Cheap body to buy and readily available lamps.

 

[Scenemaster60]

I know this thread is about the LED replacement, but your solution might be what is mentioned above - used Source Four PARs. Cheap body to buy and readily available lamps.

Nope. They won't physically fit inside the architectural recessed fixture nor, for that matter, would that solution maintain the UL rating of the recessed luminaire if they did fit.

 

[macsound]

Nope. They won't physically fit inside the architectural recessed fixture nor, for that matter, would that solution maintain the UL rating of the recessed luminaire if they did fit.

I didn't realize they were completely recessed. Good luck!

 

[almorton]

I know this thread is about the LED replacement, but your solution might be what is mentioned above - used Source Four PARs. Cheap body to buy and readily available lamps.

Not sure how this will play out, but in the UK at least, the sale of domestic tungsten/halogen lamps are to be banned outright from September 2021, and fluorescent lamps by 2023. it's still not entirely clear whether this will also include specialist theatrical lamps. The EU ban on production and new stock entering the sales channels did have exemptions for certain theatrical lamps, although if a manufacturer has shut down their domestic lines, how economic is it to continue just manufacturing niche theatre stock? Prices of existing stock will inevitably rise. Time to stock up.

 

[macsound]

Not sure how this will play out, but in the UK at least, the sale of domestic tungsten/halogen lamps are to be banned outright from September 2021, and fluorescent lamps by 2023. it's still not entirely clear whether this will also include specialist theatrical lamps. The EU ban on production and new stock entering the sales channels did have exemptions for certain theatrical lamps, although if a manufacturer has shut down their domestic lines, how economic is it to continue just manufacturing niche theatre stock? Prices of existing stock will inevitably rise. Time to stock up.

I mean, the HPL was already only sold only for theatres so the reduction in consumption is only because of LED conversions.
I do wonder how it will affect the US though because I believe, none of the HPLs we purchase are made in the US. I believe Osram HPLs are made in Germany.

 

[ACTSTech]

I'm pretty sure the best way to make a $20 PAR can into a $300 PAR can is tape $280 inside of it...

I've gone over our PARs, and as much as I love the old 1K punch, I've given up on trying to find something that works just as well from the same distance in LED.

 

[josh88]

The last Rock of Ages tour a couple years ago had a full rig like this. All the visible fixtures were busted up chrome cans that had been gutted and filled with led's so it still all looked the part. The sound towers were covered with ACL bars full of them, worked out pretty damn well.

 

[ship]

Brush one paints the stage with is forced, but with time to change. Historically A PAR Can will not have even been imagined for useful 50 years ago. Those paint brushes/lights from 50 years ago also are not on the table given the LED.

Challenge as per before is budget to convert, and as always to make the art with what you can afford to continue to use while converting. Ah' remember the bad old days early in this century, when people used to complain about not having the next' moving lights for their stage? Theater Art has been made since before Stage Lighting became a design tool. Time to put on one's design hat on in figuring out with what you have in still working with, and can get to convert as a process thing or how to use a grant purchase of. What's going to be useful to change to. Change sucks.

 

[ACTSTech]

Brush one paints the stage with is forced, but with time to change. Historically A PAR Can will not have even been imagined for useful 50 years ago. Those paint brushes/lights from 50 years ago also are not on the table given the LED.

Challenge as per before is budget to convert, and as always to make the art with what you can afford to continue to use while converting. Ah' remember the bad old days early in this century, when people used to complain about not having the next' moving lights for their stage? Theater Art has been made since before Stage Lighting became a design tool. Time to put on one's design hat on in figuring out with what you have in still working with, and can get to convert as a process thing or how to use a grant purchase of. What's going to be useful to change to. Change sucks.

As I've mentioned before, we're undergoing a massive change with a new home/renovation and though change sucks, it's also exciting. Though it's not ideal, it's kind of fun to see how we can fit old puzzle pieces into a new space. It's also kind of frustrating, because what we have and where we see things going don't always match. Furthermore, where we see a need and money to get there also don't match. Which is why I said tape the 280 bucks to the inside of the PAR.

Theater, as well as all live performing arts, will continue to go on no matter what, but it's the decisions on how that frustrate people. I asked for $200,000 in electrical upgrades, I got $50,000 that's contingent on a grant that doesn't look like it's going to come through as the governor's office said there's no money available. So for now, the puzzle piece is how do I power my old 6" 500W fresnels with no electric in the building. And my old 1K PAR cans would consume far less energy with those LED upgrades, but if they don't give me enough illumination after the upgrade, then why spend the money on the upgrade? I can buy 10 lamps for them before I find my break even point with the LED purchase. Is it worth it?

As usual, money will drive everything, so we need to find the bridge from here to there that might not be the shortest path. For me, I can't pay $300 to update a PAR unless that tool is useful. I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't invest in the upgrade or investigate if it's worth it, I just can't and won't.

 

[TimMc]

As usual, money will drive everything, so we need to find the bridge from here to there that might not be the shortest path. For me, I can't pay $300 to update a PAR unless that tool is useful. I'm not suggesting anyone shouldn't invest in the upgrade or investigate if it's worth it, I just can't and won't.

If the new thing doesn't do the job to our satisfaction, but can do some work, is it better than old things for which there is insufficient infrastructure? I see the illusory "choice" - without the grant money it likely becomes a moot point: there's no money for electrical service upgrade so there's no money for new fixtures, either. A plague, as Willy would say, on both your houses...

Who can make some money rain on your theater? How much? What can you do with that money to make "reasonable theater" until the bigger metaphorical ship comes in? There are no convenient, quick solutions and all/either/some require the application of cash.

Good luck in your Quest.

 

[ACTSTech]

Who can make some money rain on your theater? How much?

I will take all donations if anyone is interested! Cash! Lights! Amps! Speakers! Unless it has old asbestos leads, then I'll have to think twice.

My big issue with any upgrade of old technology is that it's still old technology with a band-aid on it. Again, I've never worked with the LED upgrade that was mentioned at the beginning of the post, so I don't want to slander them or make them look bad. They may have a great product, and I'd like to either see it in action or have it reviewed somewhere so I can make an educated decision.

My hesitancy, as I mentioned, is that something is being retrofitted to old technology, so will it work the same and/or better OR can it be used meaningfully. I would love to get some static LED wash lights, a few LED movers and scrap the old fresnels and ellipsoidals, but at almost $3000 a piece for a low end mover of some quality and $800 for a wash, I can't justify the cost. Nor can I justify buying an LED engine to upgrade my ellipsoidals if an entirely new instrument is nearly the same cost. I have fresnels and StarPARS that still work, I have ellipsoidals that still work. If someone came to me and said this is equally as good if not better and I can start budgeting and saving for it, I would consider it, but until then, I'll make what I have work.

It's like the people that made fun of me for not investing in a new sound board. My PM5000 may not have all the fancy digital automation with every effect built it, but it still works. My lights aren't pretty, but if I get enough outlets, I'll make them work.

 

[ship]

If what worked but needs some parts, repair and attention is in question of scrapping them for a few movers or in general LED's for budget... what you get is what you pay for. Fix what you have in continuation of what functions. There for instance is no replacement for a Fresnel in general use. With what you get, save up or buy to suppliment and replace the current inventory with something researched and quality in adding to stock. I for instance Love RDM gear.

CB over the years has had many posts about hout to restore back to factory specification old lights. Not very expensive or difficult if you have the time to make the old lights as if new. In making the old lights continue, but adding one or two quality chosen lights at a time.... you get a budget presentable in raising money for it further.

Been to a few theater's that went LED... because they needed to go LED. What they bought was low in CRI and quality in general. To a few places that went Moving Light, because that's the modern thing to do, but ineffieient versions in just having them. I even work for a install boss that will short true design for what has a few decent looks.

My advice fix what you have and go for one or two at a time quality replacements. If the PAR is a problem in all sizes now available, don't throw out the Fresnel.

 

[TimMc]

I will take all donations if anyone is interested! Cash! Lights! Amps! Speakers! Unless it has old asbestos leads, then I'll have to think twice.

My big issue with any upgrade of old technology is that it's still old technology with a band-aid on it. Again, I've never worked with the LED upgrade that was mentioned at the beginning of the post, so I don't want to slander them or make them look bad. They may have a great product, and I'd like to either see it in action or have it reviewed somewhere so I can make an educated decision.

My hesitancy, as I mentioned, is that something is being retrofitted to old technology, so will it work the same and/or better OR can it be used meaningfully. I would love to get some static LED wash lights, a few LED movers and scrap the old fresnels and ellipsoidals, but at almost $3000 a piece for a low end mover of some quality and $800 for a wash, I can't justify the cost. Nor can I justify buying an LED engine to upgrade my ellipsoidals if an entirely new instrument is nearly the same cost. I have fresnels and StarPARS that still work, I have ellipsoidals that still work. If someone came to me and said this is equally as good if not better and I can start budgeting and saving for it, I would consider it, but until then, I'll make what I have work.

It's like the people that made fun of me for not investing in a new sound board. My PM5000 may not have all the fancy digital automation with every effect built it, but it still works. My lights aren't pretty, but if I get enough outlets, I'll make them work.

Without funding, none of it matters. You can't pay for more electrical service to power the conventionals and you don't have funding to buy LED fixtures (even mid-line units, moving or not) to use the power you DO have.

Rock, meet hard place.

 

[ACTSTech]

Without funding, none of it matters.

Rock, meet hard place.

Unfortunately, I live and work in an area that still thinks that once the steel mills re-open, things will get better like it was in the 50s and 60s. The shuttered mills here continue to sit empty and fall apart but it's "just a matter of time..."

Turning back to the original topic: Does anyone have any personal, hands-on experience of retrofits that actually work and look good? If my trim is 16', and I'm used to a 1k or 575w illumination, I'd like something similar.