See also JR Clancy's site for information on Operation and Safety of rigging systems.
Perhaps also direct users to this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...cancelled-iowa-due-damage-runaway-batten.html
Attachments
Last edited:
In the event of run away
- Thread starterhillbillyfunk
- Start date
Perhaps also direct users to this thread: http://www.controlbooth.com/forums/...cancelled-iowa-due-damage-runaway-batten.html
MarshallPope
Well-Known Member
Perhaps this is when it's time to invest in padlocks?
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
Guess or research? This kind of statement needs back-up. Do you have any records to prove this?
It seems that many of you have manual counterweight systems without loading bridges - a sure recipe for disaster. Sad when you consider the cost of a loading bridge in a new build is about the cost of a single lineset or two at the most. I refuse to work on a building with manual counterweight to not have a loading bridge in all but a few re-rig projects where adding it is way beyond the project scope.
It seems to me the plumbing and controls for water systems or some other viscous based system would probably cost more than basic electric motors, but be my guess.
I believe until recently the lifts at the Lyric Opera were water powered out of the Chicago River.
Last edited by a moderator:
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
PS - number one rule in the event of a runaway - do not try to stop it by grabbing the hand line and thinking that you at 150? 200? whatever can stop a set that is out of weight by much more than your weight. I know of specific cases where people - at least one of whom I know personally - have been seriously injured or killed when their head hit a beam on the weigh up, and then they hit the floor on the way down. I don't know or know of anyone injured by spraying counterweights but I'm sure there are some. So other than maybe a quick try to slow the sucker with the rope lock, generally just get away - see if you can get out the upstage door or into the first row. But don't try to stop it.
As an ETCP I've been brought in after a number of accidents. Some by the venue to check things out, others by attorneys looking to establish culpability. The striking thing I've noticed is, of the accidents I've reviewed none had a single isolated event that caused the accident. In every case it's been a multi-step process. "A" happens, which is bad but wouldn't have caused an accident, but in this case "B" also happened, and we don't usually do "C" so...wham.
I commend hillbillyfunk. Perhaps the plan isn't perfect; it doesn't really matter. It's a plan and it's better than no plan. It achieves the primary goal - making people think and creates discussion in his venue. The next accident will be different, you won't be expecting it, but perhaps because they considered what to do someone will do something better.
Motorized rigging has some limited advantages. It's not the holy grail of safety by far. They work well on electrics in some cases. For the other 95% of stage rigging, it's nearly impossible to beat counterweight. With new products like JR Clancy's head block with the over speed brake (displayed at LDI), Thern's Brickhouse arbor & rope lock, wider spread use of multi-groove loft blocks, and synthetic purchase lines, counterweight rigging is about as safe of an answer as there is, IMO. Rigging, driving, eating peanut butter - it's all dangerous if you don't pay attention.
I commend hillbillyfunk. Perhaps the plan isn't perfect; it doesn't really matter. It's a plan and it's better than no plan. It achieves the primary goal - making people think and creates discussion in his venue. The next accident will be different, you won't be expecting it, but perhaps because they considered what to do someone will do something better.
Motorized rigging has some limited advantages. It's not the holy grail of safety by far. They work well on electrics in some cases. For the other 95% of stage rigging, it's nearly impossible to beat counterweight. With new products like JR Clancy's head block with the over speed brake (displayed at LDI), Thern's Brickhouse arbor & rope lock, wider spread use of multi-groove loft blocks, and synthetic purchase lines, counterweight rigging is about as safe of an answer as there is, IMO. Rigging, driving, eating peanut butter - it's all dangerous if you don't pay attention.
Chris Chapman
Active Member
cmckeeman
Active Member
i have heard that it might be smarter not to have people yell out a "thank you" since it could drown out a stop.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
I agree with Ty - and don't feel manual counterweight rigging is as dangerous as some people claim. (Exception: systems without loading bridges are dangerous and should be outlawed.) I thin motorized may be a little better than the credit it gets here.
In case it matters, I can legally put ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre after my name as well - in the inaugural group - and host a party for all ETCP Certified Technicians at each LDI.
The industry causes could be helped a lot with more accurate data of accidents and incidents with some verifiable basis for the data. Too much tradition and anecdotes, to few facts.
In case it matters, I can legally put ETCP Certified Rigger-Theatre after my name as well - in the inaugural group - and host a party for all ETCP Certified Technicians at each LDI.
The industry causes could be helped a lot with more accurate data of accidents and incidents with some verifiable basis for the data. Too much tradition and anecdotes, to few facts.
It might just be from my view point, but the biggest counterweight bashers I've encountered have a pretty expensive automated system they're trying to sell.
AMEN to this. 1000 times this.
My preference is having a deck chief (be it head carp, ME, whoever is in charge on the ground of whats happening with the rigging) check for clearances, let anyone nearby not paying attention know, then give the flyman the all clear/proceed (I would not use thank you for that because thats something people say a lot, proceed isn't). That way you have less talking, and less likelihood of someone not hearing a stop. Anyone yelling a STOP means stop. Seriously. I don't care if it's the janitor. Or the intern. Or whoever.
Yeah, seen that not happen. Luckily it was only equipment damaged not people. Someone yells a stop and the two people with radios (who were supposed to be watching) were paying no attention and instead having social hour. Operator was in a remote location hence the two spotters with radios. By the time someone got their attention it was over. Yeah, that worked well.
My HS is almost worse. I have a loading bridge, that's too high. Even with a fully loaded electric & raceway flown completely in, you can still barely reach the top weight.
BillConnerFASTC
Well-Known Member
MPowers
Well-Known Member
Like Ty, I am called in to investigate, evaluate, report and of course Repair, several accidents each year. Some minor, some more serious. I also note that incidents are a result of more than a single cause, except that ALL causes trace back to human error. I have never investigated an incident that was caused by mechanical or equipment failure. Several that "resulted" in a failure, but never one that was caused by something malfunctioning.
I agree with Bill, no counterweight system should ever be installed without a loading gallery. What is worse, is I know of a school system that has closed off their existing loading galleries because "it is too dangerous for students"!
That happened at one point at my high school. A teacher decided it was too dangerous for students to throw weights and therefore had students attempt to deal with a several hundred pound out of weight lineset. It ended up in a runaway and a student hurt (fortunately mostly rope burn and bruises).
NOT safer.
NOT safer.
One of our (now demolished) theatres/showrooms here was built without a fly gallery, but did have a 45' JLG Sizzor Lift that lived just outside the building. Made a dandy loading gallery, <500# at a time. Problem was, the double purchase arbors were too short, and many's the time we had to spread luminaire s across multiple batten s, not due to weight, but arbor capacity. "What do you mean you can't fit any more weight on the arbor, there's only 400# worth of lights?" Hate to admit it, but glad that theatre was torn down and replaced by high-rise condos.
.
cmckeeman
Active Member
i will always clarify for people when rigging is moving that the word is STOP, not hey, not woha, not hold, but STOP.
Similar threads
