Intel LED on a dimmer circuit

[Edmund19]

I have two mk2 spots that draw 740 watts and 6 amps each. Due to a lack of options, I would like to connect them using a twist-lock to edison adapter supplied by a Leviton Colortran 2.4kW dimmer rated to supply 20 amps. I would keep the circuit runnong at FULL for the entire production to provide the power necessary and use wireless dmx controller to operate the light. Is this setup not advised? If I should not do it, can you explain the reason it would be not advisable please?

Thanks

 

[TimMc]

No, it's not advisable. Tons of info here on why. Use the search.

 

[Edmund19]

Im having trouble finding the correct search phrasing. Any help with some direction on that?

 

[Ford]

The very abbreviated answer is that dimmers, even when Parked at full, affect the shape of the wave in AC power. It is no longer a true sine wave. This will make electronics fail.
So, powering on a dimmer at full (even for a short time) is likely to permanently damage or destroy your fixture.

 

[JonCarter]

I've heard of this problem from many users of many brands and types of LED instruments. It is technically possible to make a power supply such that t is not susceptible to "unusual" 120VAC input waveforms. Why hasn't this been done by instrument manufacturers? It would seem that they could sell more instruments if they didn't require their customers to change their existing power supply wiring or limit the usefulness of their products. Obviously, the input-waveform-proof power supply would cost more than the present power supplies, but the savings of re-wiring to the user or limited application sites would seem to make up for this added cost.

 

[RonHebbard]

I have two mk2 spots that draw 740 watts and 6 amps each. Due to a lack of options, I would like to connect them using a twist-lock to edison adapter supplied by a Leviton Colortran 2.4kW dimmer rated to supply 20 amps. I would keep the circuit runnong at FULL for the entire production to provide the power necessary and use wireless dmx controller to operate the light. Is this setup not advised? If I should not do it, can you explain the reason it would be not advisable please?

Thanks

@Edmund19 I "like" your query along with your having the good sense to ask it.
Your proposed solution to powering: Not so much. As @derekleffew will / would tell you, it'll work until it doesn't and MAY release the 'magic smoke' from within your spiffy spots.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[FMEng]

I've heard of this problem from many users of many brands and types of LED instruments. It is technically possible to make a power supply such that t is not susceptible to "unusual" 120VAC input waveforms. Why hasn't this been done by instrument manufacturers? It would seem that they could sell more instruments if they didn't require their customers to change their existing power supply wiring or limit the usefulness of their products. Obviously, the input-waveform-proof power supply would cost more than the present power supplies, but the savings of re-wiring to the user or limited application sites would seem to make up for this added cost.

Two reasons:

1. Somebody would accidentally dim the circuit and smoke the instrument, then make a warranty claim.

2. Cost. Buying off the shelf power supply components is how you sell a competitive product.

 

[TimMc]

I've heard of this problem from many users of many brands and types of LED instruments. It is technically possible to make a power supply such that t is not susceptible to "unusual" 120VAC input waveforms. Why hasn't this been done by instrument manufacturers? It would seem that they could sell more instruments if they didn't require their customers to change their existing power supply wiring or limit the usefulness of their products. Obviously, the input-waveform-proof power supply would cost more than the present power supplies, but the savings of re-wiring to the user or limited application sites would seem to make up for this added cost.

I'll add to @FMEng comments: because that's a capability the vast majority of purchasers do not need. In professional use it's more common to simply run the right power to where it's needed (touring, portable, long term sit-downs) and in most temporary, amateur use it's easier to run an Edison extension cord. IOW it's about charging every buyer for a capability the majority of whom do not need. The $25-50 added manufacturing cost for each unit becomes a competitive disadvantage.

 

[Ford]

FMEng and TimMc are both right.
Chauvet co-developed a dimming PSU for use in our Ovation fixtures. We launched it in the ED (Ellipsoidal-Dimming), and FD (Fresnel-Dimming) fixtures. We also patented a system for allowing the fixture to automatically detect whether it was on dimmed or constant power, and respond accordingly. Our thinking was that for venues which were starting to change over their fixtures to LED, but still had old infrastructure, they could start by running these fixtures on their dimmers, and change over to DMX control when they were ready.
evidenty, most venues are upgrading their infrastructure first... so, although we do sell some quantity of these, we sell way more of the (cheaper) units with standard power supplies.

Ultimately, the cost difference was too high to incorporate it into the rest of our line, and.... 90% of the added value would go to waste on a color mixing fixture, since you’d still need DMX to control the color. So, essentially, you’d be adding a few hundred dollars to the cost of a fixture for almost no gain.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

a few hundred dollars to the cost of a fixture

Which suggests the cost of adding constant power is less. One 20 amp circuit - usually 10 LED fixtures - probably costs less than a few thousand dollars. Certainly if its a module in a dimmer rack, but even if you had to hire an electrician to run a circuit.

 

[Craig Hauber]

A lot of consumer grade electronics run fine on basic inverters -not sine wave types. Like charging your laptop of a cigarette-lighter type unit.
I have also run dozens of cheap chinese LED pars off of a 2000W basic unit in an RV and on parade floats and no problems (other than individual LED's failing, but they do that on normal shore-power too -what do you expect for a $15 dollar unit!)
Anyways my question is, has anyone scoped the waveforms under non-filament load of a modern (modular ETC/Colortran/Strand etc..) and compared it to the waveform of the basic consumer-grade inverter like you can buy at truck stops?
Would their be a product or DIY circuit design you could implement to place between "dimmer parked @ 100" and "product you wish to power" to restore it closer to what you would get out of an inverter (if not to a "clean" sinusoidal shape)
Of course the question being cost as well as not damaging or overloading the dimmer itself.
But for someone who tours frequently in less-than-adequetly staffed (and often run-down) facilities it sure would be nice to power our augmented LED's off the house AP's without having to run 150' of #10 thru catwalks and box-booms to get to our on-stage distro!

 

[Edmund19]

I appreciate all of the replies. I've done the nasty work of running a conventional line up there. This way I don't have to worry

 

[TimMc]

I appreciate all of the replies. I've done the nasty work of running a conventional line up there. This way I don't have to worry

Run them once and leave in place.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

A lot of consumer grade electronics run fine on basic inverters -not sine wave types. Like charging your laptop of a cigarette-lighter type unit.
I have also run dozens of cheap chinese LED pars off of a 2000W basic unit in an RV and on parade floats and no problems (other than individual LED's failing, but they do that on normal shore-power too -what do you expect for a $15 dollar unit!)
Anyways my question is, has anyone scoped the waveforms under non-filament load of a modern (modular ETC/Colortran/Strand etc..) and compared it to the waveform of the basic consumer-grade inverter like you can buy at truck stops?
Would their be a product or DIY circuit design you could implement to place between "dimmer parked @ 100" and "product you wish to power" to restore it closer to what you would get out of an inverter (if not to a "clean" sinusoidal shape)
Of course the question being cost as well as not damaging or overloading the dimmer itself.
But for someone who tours frequently in less-than-adequetly staffed (and often run-down) facilities it sure would be nice to power our augmented LED's off the house AP's without having to run 150' of #10 thru catwalks and box-booms to get to our on-stage distro!

Of course I ask the question why don't these houses have constant (relay or not) power already. I started consulting in 1982 and I always put constant circuits every position. They might not always have been DMX controlled relays, but usually relays with on off at stage manager panels.

It is true DMX distributed was a little dodgy 20+ years ago, but by late 80s I had it in some form to fixed positions and the grid. Redoing a pac system now I designed around 1986 and reusing the DMX, albeit with new and multiple runs and network, but boxes and conduit still fine. So is DMX on 30 year old splitters except one run - damaged wire suspected - so all being replaced.

 

[Edmund19]

Of course I ask the question why don't these houses have constant (relay or not) power already. I started consulting in 1982 and I always put constant circuits every position. They might not always have been DMX controlled relays, but usually relays with on off at stage manager panels.

It is true DMX distributed was a little dodgy 20+ years ago, but by late 80s I had it in some form to fixed positions and the grid. Redoing a pac system now I designed around 1986 and reusing the DMX, albeit with new and multiple runs and network, but boxes and conduit still fine. So is DMX on 30 year old splitters except one run - damaged wire suspected - so all being replaced.

I wondered and asked the same question with this setup. The install/upgrade is only a couple of years old. I can't understand why they didnt address this issue with the upgrades.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

The need for constant power on catwalks and such has always been there. Different effects and machines, power tools (of course cordless NOW), etc. And cannot count on electrical engineers to put it in.

 

[RonHebbard]

A lot of consumer grade electronics run fine on basic inverters -not sine wave types. Like charging your laptop of a cigarette-lighter type unit.
I have also run dozens of cheap chinese LED pars off of a 2000W basic unit in an RV and on parade floats and no problems (other than individual LED's failing, but they do that on normal shore-power too -what do you expect for a $15 dollar unit!)
Anyways my question is, has anyone scoped the waveforms under non-filament load of a modern (modular ETC/Colortran/Strand etc..) and compared it to the waveform of the basic consumer-grade inverter like you can buy at truck stops?
Would their be a product or DIY circuit design you could implement to place between "dimmer parked @ 100" and "product you wish to power" to restore it closer to what you would get out of an inverter (if not to a "clean" sinusoidal shape)
Of course the question being cost as well as not damaging or overloading the dimmer itself.
But for someone who tours frequently in less-than-adequetly staffed (and often run-down) facilities it sure would be nice to power our augmented LED's off the house AP's without having to run 150' of #10 thru catwalks and box-booms to get to our on-stage distro!

Calling @STEVETERRY
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard

 

[macsound]

Even outside of theatre, haven't people noticed that plugs are surprisingly sparse?
My college had 2 plugs in the FOH catwalk and 1 in the loading gallery.
A community theatre had one plug every 10 feet or so in the FOH catwalk but only 2 non dims, and one was labeled as a cue light, even though it was actually just a 20A circuit.
Most Doubletrees I stay at seem to have 2 outlets, one on each wall. The remodeled ones have routed that power into the desk, dresser under the TV and the nightstand so you have somewhere to charge things, but still, 2?
My childhood home usually had 4 plugs per room, none of which were ever on the section of the wall you wanted them on. And why are there never plugs in house hallways?
A church I currently mix at has 4 plugs in the entry area, about 6000 sqft, one on each of the 2 columns, one on the wall furthest from center and the opposite wall, directly center. So everything is on extension cords. And it's a new buildout.

Long winded but who's specing this garbage. It's so common, there must be some lofty scheme going on to piss us all off when we can't vacuum our hallways, charge our phone or power our moving lights.

 

[SteveB]

Newer hotels are much better than 10 years ago. I used to carry a cube tap, rarely use it now. They’ve figured out folks are charging stuff and theres USB everywhere. I’m told never use one, do a wall wart, especially at airports.

My house, built in 1911, got “updated“ in late 1990’s. The owner put in a lot of outlets (not in hallways though) as well as coax TV and RJ11 phone jacks, like right next to every outlet in every room. There’s this huge bundle of coax in the attic and basement and NONE of it is currently of the standard used by the cable/FIOS systems. And of course there NO Cat5 and my phone landline is now all wireless with a base station. Ive had to run new TV coax into rooms.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

IIRC for homes and I think would apply to hotel rooms within 6' along any wall - so every 12' - and on any wall section between doors or obstructions that is 2' or wider.

What bothers me is it seems every hotel in Mississippi - the plug, plate, and box all move 1/2" or 1" in and out of wall.