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ion / eos submaster issue

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by JChenault, May 8, 2018.

  1. JChenault

    JChenault Well-Known Member

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    I want to do something on our new Ion - but I can't figure out how. ( It may not be possible. ETC tech support said it could not be done - but it seems so obvious I am questioning their answer )

    What I want to do:
    I am sitting in a cue with my front lights at 100%. I have an inhibitive submaster that lets me take them to a lower level. - so I take them down to 50% on my inhibitive sub.

    But I want to be able to sneak the center area up 10 pts. It would seem that I should be able to create a submaster that would do this ( perhaps by playing with priority or the exclusions property) . I can't make it do this.

    ETC's tech support says that I can write a sub to do it ( with the sub at a higher priority) - but it will jump, not be smooth. I've tried to exclude the inhibit on the sub, but that has even stranger effects.

    Anyone have any ideas
     
  2. Amiers

    Amiers Lighting Phoenix 1 Lamp at a Time

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    You should just be able to set an HTP sub with channel x x that will supersede the Inhib. Although it would conflict with the other sub so I see their point.

    Maybe set the main sub to LTP and the INHIB to Inhib and the 3rd sub to HTP?
     
  3. Jacob Brooks

    Jacob Brooks Member

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    Who did you speak to from tech support? While I definitely trust all of their information, I Believe Sasha is the best one to speak to.
     
  4. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    Rather then trying to make the console do something odd, I’d simply put the center area channel in its own adjacent inhibit sub, run both together, then adjust center as required.
     
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  5. danTt

    danTt Well-Known Member

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    That works as long as it's only the center area, but if you want to be able to adjust any given area it gets gross pretty fast.

    Two thoughts... Not near a console so I can't test at the moment.

    1) does scaled park (@/110, fex) obey manual time in setup?

    2) similar... If you put a light at 90% in an inhibitive sub instead of full is it 10% less effective? Never tried...
     
  6. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    He's asking to configure a separate sub anyway so the more channels he wants to bump up, the messier it gets.

    If you convert an additive sub to inhibit, that sub no longer generates values, which have to come from a different source.
     
  7. danTt

    danTt Well-Known Member

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    Certainly. My thoughts/questions were precursors to macros that would allow adjusting scaled park/inhibitive subs on an as-needed basis, if manual time effected either.
     
  8. JChenault

    JChenault Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the replies and thoughts.
    My use case is two subs ( one inhibit - one HTP). The base level is coming from a cue. The issue is that if the Inhibit sub is set to ( say) 50% - I could not get the output of the 'center area' up as high as I want. I am limited to the headroom in the original cue.

    They gave me the name, but I did not write it down. It did get referred to the "Eos Expert" however. The guy I talked to did not quite understand that I wanted a smooth bump not a flash.

    Driving to the theatre, I realized this was an approach that would work ( not ideal but an acceptable work around). Not sure I agree that this is something odd from the standpoint of console design, it seems like it would be a useful option to me.


    The "interesting" thing was what happened when I tried to set up the submaster to ignore inhibitive ( this is an option in the interface, but not talked about in the manual) If the underlying intensity of the cue had my center area at 80%, and the Inhibitive sub was at ( say) 50% ( giving an output of 40% on the stage). If I took an HTP sub that 'ignored' inhibitive, it would do nothing until it reached a level of 80% at which point the channel output would immediately jump to 80%. Not what I wanted at all. ( Sounds like this feature is not ready for prime time to me)

    We also looked at priorities. If I set the HTP sub at a higher priority, when I started to move the sub, ( from 0 to 1%) it would immediately jump to 1%. Again no ability to do a smooth fade.
     
  9. TheaterEd

    TheaterEd Renaissance Man Fight Leukemia

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    Not ideal, but while in cue 5, could you use your inhibitive sub to bring down the levels, record cue 5.1, then take out the sub and bring up your center sub?

    Extra key strokes for sure, but it would be smooth from the audience perspective.

    Have you considered using magic sheets? Click your face lights and wheel them down, then click your center section and bring it up.
     
    starksk likes this.
  10. RickR

    RickR Well-Known Member

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    3 different, and different kinds, of subs affecting the same lights is just asking for trouble . These simple methods are my choice.
     
  11. starksk

    starksk ETC Technical Support Specialist Premium Member Fight Leukemia

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    Hi @JChenault,

    I'm confused about what you are asking the console to do versus what you want the console to do.

    In this scenario, the level that the console is calculating on is 100%. You bringing the inhibitive submaster down to 50% does not change the stored level for calculation of inhibit until you record that level.

    This is because, without Exclude from Inhibitive Sub enabled, the level calculated is (HTP (either Cue or Sub) Level * Inhibitive Sub %) and since you can't have a submaster with a level above 100%, you can't get a higher proportion relative to the maximum level allowed by the inhibitive.

    This is covered in the 2.5.0 manual supplement where the feature was introduced.
    This is the correct behavior for an HTP sub since the original level that the inhibitive submaster was inhibiting is 80% so the HTP didn't put the submaster in control until the level reached 80% at which point the sub took over and jumped to that value since it is now in control and not listening to the inhibitive submaster.

    Again the console is doing what you are asking it to do. You are telling the console that the submaster with the higher priority should be in control and so when it sees a level (even a lower level) it jumps to that level.

    I'm not sure what you mean by smooth bump either. Are you saying that you want the level to increase from the inhibited percentage by 10% without jumping or that you want to have a sneak time applied to the level change?

    I'm guessing that you want the lights to fade up in your "(80*50%) = 40%" example to be able to fade up 10% from 40% using the sub fader. As long as you want to only fade up from 40% and never back down, you could set your second fader to LTP with "Exclude from Inhibitive Sub" enabled and at the same priority as your inhibitive submaster. When you fade that submaster up, it will start from 40% and fade up from that point. You can then update/record the cue.
    The gotcha with the LTP fader is that if you overshoot and bring it back down, it's going to calculate from the original HTP value (80) and since it is ignoring the inhibitive sub, you will see it jump up and continue up until the sub no longer has control then the level will return to the inhibited 40%. To avoid this unwanted behavior on bringing the fader down after recording the cue, set the stomp behavior to "release" so that when the record action is complete and the fader loses control, it is released from control until the physical fader is moved to 0 and then up again. To reset without rerecording, assert the original cue to also stomp on the LTP sub and bring the fader back down and try again.

    Ultimately, you are running into a combination of inhibitive percentage calculations combined with changing which source is in control of the level. Unfortunately, we've yet to develop a reliable "do this only when I mean it, but know when I don't mean it without me telling you" method of control.
     
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  12. JChenault

    JChenault Well-Known Member

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    First of all thanks for the lengthy reply I appreciate it.

    Let me be clear about what I am trying to get the console to do.
    We are doing a one act cut of Adams Family at a play festival and I am figuring out how to approach the cueing. The kicker is a very limited time to set levels in the space, and level setting done mostly under worklights, the show is somewhat complex for a 60 minute one act ( somewhere around 100 'cues' ( IF we define a cue as a line in my notes telling me to do something, not the number of 'Cues' recorded in the console)

    The plot I am given has front area lights, warm down, and cool down. Additionally there are LED side lights. and a couple of movers.

    My general intent is to write my console cues to control follow spots, and the areas on the stage that we need for the scenes ( using intensity palettes). I am planning to simply place the area, warm, cool at a 'bright balanced' level. I will then have inhibitive submasters to take the appropriate system ( fronts, warm down, cool down) to the level I think will work, and be able to adjust during the show. ( LED sides to be handled with submasters, and direct selects)

    One kicker is that there are several times when I need to boost DC a bit. This needs to be smooth and under control of the operator.

    At no point will I be recording any cues during the performance.



    Thanks for the pointer to the 2.5.0 manual supplement. I missed it when I was looking.

    Re the 'correctness' of the HTP sub which is ignoring inhibitive. One of the issues I always stress with my Software Engineering students is that they need to build a mental model of what the computer ( programming language, etc) is doing.

    I suspect my mental model ( a monitor for the channel that looks at all of the inputs from subs, cues, etc and decides the proper output) is not how it is implemted. Do you have any pointers to something that explains ( say) the data structures you use, or how it thinks about all of the combinations that are possible? It would be helpful.


    My intent at this point in time is to simply make two inhibitive subs. One for the center areas, one for the rest of the areas.


    As to:
    When you work that out - patent it.

    Thanks again.
     
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  13. SteveB

    SteveB Well-Known Member

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    Have touch screens ?

    I would be creating a magic sheet with the rig plus a ton of groups, maybe make the groups virtual on-screen faders, or just touch the group button on screen and adjust via wheel. Create subs as "base" looks, then do manual adjustments on screen and manipulate to your hearts content. Sneak XX (time) to release all manual adjustment back to sub(s)
     
  14. JonCarter

    JonCarter Well-Known Member

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    With all of the fantastic, computerized, marvelous, magic lighting control available nowadays, why is this so difficult:

    Cue n:
    on a 5-count: (or whatever)
    DL -> 5
    DLC -> 5
    DC -> 5
    DRC -> 5
    DR -> 5

    Cue n+1:
    on a 5-count: (or whatever)
    DC -> 6

    Used to be pretty easy.
     
  15. danTt

    danTt Well-Known Member

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    I don't see why that isn't still possible?
    Cue 1. Group 1 thru 5 @ 5
    Cue 2. Group 3 @ 6.

    Magic? Of course--this relies on having a predetermined cue structure that will not change on the fly.
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2018
  16. starksk

    starksk ETC Technical Support Specialist Premium Member Fight Leukemia

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    The manual (which is getting a full refresh in the next version) does go into specific examples as concepts are introduced, but unfortunately we don't have a document that models every combination possible. I suspect because that model would be quite complex to work out every possible iteration and, unless you've had the context for what all of the possible options are (i.e.: have read the entire manual or used all of the functions), it would likely be more confusing than helpful in most instances.

    In general, the concepts in the manual that are relevant to this thread are: Priority, Stomp, Assert, HTP/LTP, and Inhibit.
     
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  17. lwinters630

    lwinters630 Well-Known Member

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    If I follow you. set your subs to the different areas including center area. Then use the group comand to take lights out of s look or cue. example you have subs 1 - 5 with 3 being center area. bring up 1-5 to the level you want and record cue 100. Go to cue 100. Now hit group sub 3 and roll your wheel down (or up). This will lower center area. sneek will release the center..
    When usung the group comand. Whatever is chosen next is treated as group. Group sub, group cue, group intensity palet.
     
  18. Captain Audio

    Captain Audio Member

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    I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

    I wonder if the solution is in looking at the problem differently. I would consider a set of macros that change the manual fade times. Then potentially a set of macros that take your groups down to a % and another up to %. Thankfully Magic sheets make it possible to lay these out in a way that makes sense to you.

    I have seen some others post about this in the EOS family programmer facebook group. You could even get crafty and have macros that record subs and record over existing subs so you have a physical fader to play with.

    Either way, I think the solution lies somewhere in Macros, and Magic Sheets.
     

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