Is the Titan Mobile really not well suited for theatre shows?

C

Clay320

Member
Long time lurker first time poster...

So I'm the lowly part time Facility/Tech Director at the local PAC, seats 270. 2 years ago(about 4 months before I got hired on) they got a Titan Mobile as the lighting console to run a mix of conventional, LED, and moving fixtures. We do 10-15 concerts a year, some nationally known acts, 7-8 theatre productions which are mostly community and youth theatre type, and various rentals here and there.

For most of the concerts I design and run lights, which can get interesting when trying to busk on 10 faders, but it works for us. Maybe I can talk the office into getting the wing in the next year or two ;) .

The theatre shows usually bring in local volunteer designers/ops for their shows. Theater productions load in two weeks before open and the light designer programs over the course of that time. Most of the LDs are volunteers and not working professionally, but apart from the initial learning curve of a computer based console everyone has been happy with the setup and been able to create good looking shows.

On the most recent production the director decided to fly in a professional lighting friend from the big city. He would be at the theater for tech Sunday through the opening night on Thursday and then hand off OPing to a local person for the rest of the show. The LD arrives on Sunday and spends the whole day taking notes and not doing much programing other than playing around with looks, which is fine, no problem with getting to know the space and show. Monday he comes in and makes an attempt to program the whole show on the fly during the run and quickly learns that he doesn't know the software enough to program that fast. I get told that the problem is that it is a European console that is intended for concerts, the online training is poor quality, and that if we had a proper theatre console he would be able to design the show properly and quicker.

I was somewhat taken back by this as none of the other dozen productions designed by volunteers had ever had so much trouble. I will give him the fact that he had four days vs the two weeks most have, but still I was surprised that this was such a big hindrance. He knew 4 weeks out what our setup was, so it's not like he walked in blind or anything. To add to the trouble I had to take over on audio for the production because the board op got the flu and called in sick 2 hours before the tech day run, so I was limited in the help I could give the LD as I was busy putting out fires in audio world most of the time. By the time Thursday rolled around a good cue list was ready to go and we opened without any major snags.

The reason I'm telling you guys all this is not to complain about the picky LD, but to ask, is he right? Is the Titan Mobile really that limiting when designing theater on a tight deadline? Or is it a lack of knowledge on short cuts, hot keys etc? I'm just the part time guy who watches over the gear and taught myself to busk concerts. I have not done any design for theatre on it, so I'm not sure in this case if it is a limitation of the device or a lack or knowing how to use it efficiently that caused all the fuss.

I'm hoping the collective minds here can help me out on this. If it's a limitation of the Titan Mobile, I want to be able to properly inform future LD's of what they are getting into, and if it's a lack of knowing the software, I want to be able to provide the resources to get that knowledge to the LDs.
 
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You have to face that it is a much less well known board. I think the LD probably should have said no thank you to the gig given the console or simply made it a condition to have a console he was comfortable with. You can't expect everyone to be trained and proficient on all flavors of a given software solution.

Most of my clients work in Revit but at least that cooperates with AutoCAD that I work in. I turn down work if Revit is a condition, after asking for enough additional fee to hire someone to do the Revit work. And two clients work with cad programs I'd never heard of - and to then its worth the hassle of communication to the rest of the aec world to stick with it.

I've just been working through a similar issue with specs. I work in WordPerfect and no interest in learning Word. Better things to do with my time.

Does most of the US legit theatre world run on EOS software? Probably overwhelming percentage.

But then I'm use to designers designing and master electricians running the console, so that's another whole issue.
 
I'd say you've answered your own question, for the most part - the Titan Mobile is a great tool, and Avo's longtime motto has been 'From Rock to Opera,' and it works great for those and many situations in between.
Is it going to work exactly like a Console X? No, probably not, but it can accomplish all of the same resulting 0's and 1's flying down the DMX line.
Avo's manual for the Titan series is just about the most plain-English, readable console manual out there, and their online training videos on specific topics on YouTube are also great.
So, I'd wager that it's probably a case of the carpenter blaming his tools....

As an aside, if you're using it for concerts and wishing for more playbacks, remember that it has a 5-pin-MIDI input, so you can use some of the many, affordable MIDI devices out there to trigger playbacks or palettes (or a few other things) on the console; and with the addition of a USB-Host box like these, you can even use some of the DJ-focused MIDI devices, i.e. a Launchpad or (my current favorite) MPK Mini, with a mix of keys, pads and knobs.
 
DanH said:
So, I'd wager that it's probably a case of the carpenter blaming his tools....
Click to expand...

I get that if you ask a carpenter to build you something with his tools and it goes poorly, hes to blame. But if you say build me something with this tool that I know you have never used or been trained on, I'm pretty sympathetic with the carpenter. The designer should have probably excused himself or arranged for tools he knew how to use or should have made the time and be sure he was paid for learning how to use unfamiliar tools. If I were to try to use tools - software or apps - in the completion of my work that I didn't know how to use, I'd be criminally negligent.

Would you expect a rigger who had done manual rigging to run a show on a fully motorized system? It does the same things - makes stuff go up and down. Yes, the rigger could learn it but he should expect to be paid for the time the training takes and not try to run it without the training.
 
Agreed, Bill, entirely - the carpenter who has never used a panel saw, tries to anyway without learning how it works and wastes a sheet of plywood, probably shouldn't then tell the TD that his panel saw is defective or it's the wrong tool for slicing plywood.

And further, the *volunteer* LD's without professional experience can learn to use the console, and, direct quote, "create good looking shows" - so I hardly think the console is the problem here!
 
DanH said:
Agreed, Bill, entirely - the carpenter who has never used a panel saw, tries to anyway without learning how it works and wastes a sheet of plywood, probably shouldn't then tell the TD that his panel saw is defective or it's the wrong tool for slicing plywood.

And further, the *volunteer* LD's without professional experience can learn to use the console, and, direct quote, "create good looking shows" - so I hardly think the console is the problem here!
Click to expand...

A big difference between volunteers and professionals is volunteers give their time away, professionals don't. That includes for training. If the volunteers who can operate the console do such a great job designing lights, I wonder why anyone wanted a professional.

I keep recalling the early days of calculators and the HP with its RPN versus TI. Or just hand someone use to a calculator a slide rule. Does the same thing.

I agree the console is not the problem per se, but expecting someone that was never been trained to know how to use it and for that someone to not disclose in advance they didn't know how to use it are both problems. (Though when I was younger I was able to easily move between consoles - albeit all auto-transformers at first,and later two scene presets.)
 
A couple things.

Designers aren't programmers. Depending on what sort of work the LD does, he may be used to working with a programmer. With a programmer, the LD can make anything on anything. Functionally, in a professional setting there isn't any expectation that designers keep up with console technology. The venue would bring in someone or has someone who knows the console they have and translates the designers wishes to the appropriate console syntax. In these situations, it is inappropriate for the designer to even touch the console.

Secondly, some consoles are better for live events, some are better for theatre. Could you program a Broadway show on a Hog? Of course. Would you? No. Could you program the halftime show on an Eos Ti? Absolutely. Would you? Hell to the no. In this case, the console really isn't designed for theatre programming. To continue the carpenter analogy, it's like drilling a perfect six inch hole with a jigsaw. You can do it if you know what you're doing, but maybe it would be easier with a six inch hole saw.

Finally, you have a miniature version of the big thing. A pro Eos programmer will be slower on the Nomad. Again to keep the carpenter analogy, it's using a screwdriver when you'd rather use a screwgun.
 
Thanks for all the comments, I appreciate the insight that this community can provide!

I agree with what it seems most of you are getting at, it's a combination of factors and not necessarily one single issue. For this gig it was expected the designer would also be doing the programing and that was clear to all parties from the start. I conveyed what the console was ahead of time when I forwarded the rep plot, schedules, etc. I don't think we purposely lead him astray with extravagant expectations on those aspects as he was aware of what we had to work with and what the production expected from him (designing and programing). For this gig the conversation in regards to the console was basically, "What board do you guys have?" "A Titan Mobile." "Cool Thanks." I assumed(mistake #1) that all was well and any questions would be forwarded promptly. Not the case.

Looking forward to future productions I think a solution may include being more forward and persistent when providing the console info to better determine what level of knowledge the designer / programmer has. If they are working with the titan mobile every day, or just watched all the youtube tutorials yesterday, the more info to that effect the better so that needed resources can be arranged before we are in the thick of it. Many of the solutions suggested like having a programmer, or arranging for a different console would be possible, but not if need was made known 3 days before open. That's on me to ensure those needs ARE known for the future.

I welcome any other comments and insight. I know that I don't know everything at this point in my tech theatre career. I have a lot to learn when liaising between the various aspects of a production and I am glad there are places like here to learn and grow in that respect.
 
Good and fair analysis. Based on what you present, I'd agree the LD erred in not initially addressing his unfamiliarity with the console he agreed to program, and as you note he could have required a programmer or arranged for a console he was familiar with or simply declined the commission. Sounded like you were in an awkward position, the offer and acceptance being between the LD and the director.

I think it is true that console programmers overall are more familiar with EOS based systems, especially those that program for theatre. I'm facing the problem of a college that is influenced by the concert business, and being told to get a Jands, and by their own theatre people, who want EOS. Simple solution - one of each - and also good for the educational mission. I appreciate not everyone has that option (aka: budget) available to them.
 
Going back to DanH's comment on the availability of midi to add additional control: Has anyone ACTUALLY used one of these midi devices? I would be interested in which one; along with real world outcomes, both pro and con.
 
Clay,
I'd say your problems started when the LD was hired and no one asked what control he is confident with. Assuming everyone was clear up front that programming the show was in the LD's scope for that production then step two would have been to verify that the LD was real-time competent, and if not hired a local who did know the Titan environment to press the necessary keys.

As was mentioned above, issue 2 is that you're using a mobile, or in my viewpoint a backup or off-line environment to program your rig in real time. There's a reason companies spend time and money designing their face panels - speed and ease (ok as a goal anyhow.) If you had a Tiger or Quartz he wouldn't have had nearly the issue. As people have said, even in ETC programming on an ION or Element is a lot faster than on a Nomad, it's a matter of having keys and functions available as a single button press than as tabs, pull-downs, and right-clicks.

At the end of a day nearly any programming environment (and I've personally done Palette (Horizon) to Express to ION to Hog to Avo to Light Factory) can accomplish what you need, but the approach will depend on the nuances of that environment. If you find yourself doing last minute busking then I would encourage you to stick with Avo but have a local programmer available for the designers who are more comfortable in an ETC or MA environment. If you're going to be hiring theatrical designer/programmers then chances are most of them today will arrive expecting to see an ETC EOS family controller.
 
BillConnerFASTC said:
I get that if you ask a carpenter to build you something with his tools and it goes poorly, hes to blame. But if you say build me something with this tool that I know you have never used or been trained on, I'm pretty sympathetic with the carpenter. The designer should have probably excused himself or arranged for tools he knew how to use or should have made the time and be sure he was paid for learning how to use unfamiliar tools. If I were to try to use tools - software or apps - in the completion of my work that I didn't know how to use, I'd be criminally negligent.

Would you expect a rigger who had done manual rigging to run a show on a fully motorized system? It does the same things - makes stuff go up and down. Yes, the rigger could learn it but he should expect to be paid for the time the training takes and not try to run it without the training.
Click to expand...

Maybe I’m an idiot, but I’ve always operated under the premise that learning new skills,tools, and software is my professional development responsibility ... not something I bill the client for unless it’s something esoteric and time sensitive, or I’m stepping into someone else’s unfinished mess and can’t build it cleanly in a way that makes sense to me. Thoughts?
 
It's a choice, with consequences. Client or employer? Requirement to stay employed or opportunity for advancement. Whose terms do you want to work on, yours or theirs? I guess some of those answers are based on if you have earned that choice.
 
Ben Stiegler said:
Maybe I’m an idiot, but I’ve always operated under the premise that learning new skills,tools, and software is my professional development responsibility ... not something I bill the client for unless it’s something esoteric and time sensitive, or I’m stepping into someone else’s unfinished mess and can’t build it cleanly in a way that makes sense to me. Thoughts?
Click to expand...
I think Bill raises some good questions. I think that if you're hired as a "consultant", you'd better already know what you're being paid to "consult" about. If you are an employee, OTJ training time and/or employer-paid training is probably the norm. Gigs are more a la carte, and are based on what you are hired to do. Hopefully both parties are transparent enough that everyone knows what they're getting. Difficulties can arise when one party doesn't understand what the expectations are, e.g. "I need a lighting person for a high school event with a few lights, nothing fancy" turning into "half the lights in the auditorium are broken so we rented 25 Asian movers and don't know what to do with them" or when someone is less than honest, but in general, whatever you agree to is fine if both parties agree to it.

RE Word Perfect - wow - 1997 called and wanted their word processor back. :) (not that I love Word - it's my least favorite piece of MS software, but my use of it is basic enough that I muddle through.)
 
Clay320 said:
Long time lurker first time poster...
To answer the original question,
Is the Titan Mobile really not well suited for theatre shows?
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My reply would be "yes". It is poorly suited for that purpose. Can you get it done? Yes, probably, after a bunch of cussing - in the same manner that it may be possible to drive a screw with a hammer. The real strength of Titan desks is making cool looks for wiggle lights. For cued theatrical shows, it's simply the wrong tool for the job. Just my $.02
 
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