Is there a lighting console that works like this?

[frenchie16]

First, I'm new here, so hello!

I just finished working on the first show I have designed lights for. I used an ETC Ion and learned a fair bit about programming it. While I can see the logic behind its way of doing things, it does not correspond with how I wanted to program the show.

Here is what I want. I want to build various submasters (one each for warm and cool for each area, one for each special, etc.). I want to then have faders which control these submasters, and use these faders to build looks. I could get up to this point on the Ion, with a fader wing attached.

Where the Ion falls short is once I have recorded a cue, if I want to go back in and edit it. The problem is that cues save the values of channels, not of submasters. I want my cues to recall the levels of various submasters, and recalculate where the lights should be based on this at playback time. This way if I change the levels in a submaster, they are changed in all cues using that submaster. Also, if I were to go into a cue where some submasters are up, the fader wing would show me where to move the faders, and once they were in position, they would control the levels of those lights.

I can get some of this functionality with presets and LTP submasters. However, I can't quite get the full behavior that I want.

My question is, is there a way to make the Ion behave like this, or is there a board that operates in this way?

 

[Les]

Sounds like you may need to read up on Groups and Tracking. The former makes it much easier to program a show than using submasters.

I believe all non-tracking consoles (Expression, Express, etc) worked the way you want, but Tracking is the thing now, apparently. Just don't ask me anything else because I don't work with tracking consoles enough to know much more . Someone else will chime in and [possibly] prove me wrong.

 

[frenchie16]

Yeah, in the process of programming this show I discovered that groups were a nicer way to do things given how the Ion works, and started using the subs as groups (apparently you can just use a sub as a group of any channels that have values in that sub, you just lose proportionality).

I do also understand how tracking works, and I guess it does kind of go against what I am trying to do. I guess I just don't love the tracking way of doing things.

My understanding, however, is that even on a non-tracking board (or the Ion with tracking turned off), you still don't get exactly what I want, which is essentially cues that store sub levels rather than channel levels (using subs as referenced data).

 

[cmckeeman]

i think what you want to start using are palates, if you have an intensity palate yo can save that to a cue and then if you edit the palate it will change it in the cue as well if you update the cue. take a looka t what the manual says about using palates.

 

[Joshualangman]

I have often wanted this. Essentially, I want subs or groups to work like style sheets in a page layout program — if you change the style definition, all text to which that style has been applied also updates. Following this analogy, you could have parent and child subs — if you record sub 1 into sub 2, when you change sub 1 it updates not only all cues including sub 1 but all cues including sub 2, excluding the channels explicitly changed by sub 2. Basically, this would add a layer of abstraction between channels and cues. Instead of recording that such and such a channel is at such a level, the cue only knows that the "sunlight" sub is at such a level. This sub, in turn, knows what levels the channels within it are at. Changing the definition of the sub is entirely independent from the cue. The cue still points to the same reference, but the results will be different when the sub changes. Cues would have the option to "unlink" them completely from any included subs, or in other words, to explicitly record all channel levels.

 

[frenchie16]

Yes, this is it exactly. A layer of abstraction between channels and cues. Is there a board that offers this?

And yes, I know that something somewhat similar is available via the various types of referenced data on Eos family boards (palettes, presets, effects), but it is not quite correct. If a sub is used in a cue and the cue is recalled, the sub should now be at its level from that cue. Ideally a board that implemented this design by default would have motorized faders; the fader with that sub on it would move to the appropriate position.

Relatedly, a few friends and I have been talking about designing and prototyping our own basic lighting console as a project. If that ever happens, I am definitely going to implement this design.

 

[Les]

Oh, I see what you're saying now. I remember wanting that feature -- if I had my warm front lights on a sub and later decided I needed it 20% lower, I'd have to manually enter the channel numbers contained in that sub. I wished I could just say _{[__] [@] [__] [Enter]. I wasn't sure if groups worked this way or not -- been a long time since I've programmed a cue-stack show.}

 

[Sony]

Oh, I see what you're saying now. I remember wanting that feature -- if I had my warm front lights on a sub and later decided I needed it 20% lower, I'd have to manually enter the channel numbers contained in that sub. I wished I could just say _{[__] [@] [__] [Enter]. I wasn't sure if groups worked this way or not -- been a long time since I've programmed a cue-stack show.}

_{Actually on the EOS/ION/Element while using a submaster, you can just click the upper button of the two buttons below the submaster and all the channels in that submaster will be selected. Then you can ether type in the intensity you want or use the intensity wheel on the board to adjust the level. The submaster must be all the way down to use this feature though. I however use this feature constantly while editing cues or during a rehearsal run when I want to fix something quickly without stopping the show. Being able to select my entire front or backlight in one button press is wonderful.}

 

[frenchie16]

Actually on the EOS/ION/Element while using a submaster, you can just click the upper button of the two buttons below the submaster and all the channels in that submaster will be selected. Then you can ether type in the intensity you want or use the intensity wheel on the board to adjust the level.

This is what I ended up doing. It's not a perfect solution, however. For one thing, it just treats any channels with values in the sub as a group (it's equivalent to [GROUP]_{[#] where # is the sub number), so you lose any proportional values stored in the sub (I think? correct me if I'm wrong). Also it would be a lot easier if it would actually properly recall the sub values, show you where to put the faders, and then let the faders control the levels of the subs. In other words, if I build a cue with subs on faders, after I have built it, I could take out any sub by pulling down its fader, and the sub levels are set how I want them and reflected on teh faders. If I then record that cue and recall it later, I want the board to be in the same state, ready to have the cue edited with the faders.}

 

[cpf]

This was pretty much the first thing I ran into the first time I touched a computerized lighting board - subs and physical faders make setting up cues super fast, but once recorded it's back to using one of the solutions above. It wouldn't be that hard to add submaster metadata to cues, and optionally maintain the design-time *TP rules, so I don't really know why nobody has done it.

 

[carllib]

We just recently purchased two Ions for our auditorium, needed at two separate locations. During training, a preset was discussed. I have not had to build a show yet, but from my understanding you record the preset look and use that to build your cues. If you decide to go in and change the preset, once re-recorded, it will automatically update the cue. I am pretty sure that this is how that works, but if I am wrong, someone please correct me.

 

[danTt]

This is mostly true. Theres a few tricks that make it easier though.

1) Use +% and -%. This applies to each value individually, and you can set it to whatever you wish. On the Ion its "Shift" + "+" or "Shift"+"-" and the values are configured in setup.

2) You can use at to raise values proportionately, theres just a bit of math involved. Channel 1 @ /25 takes it to 25% of it's current value, or at /150 raises it to 50 above it's current value.

 

[millamber]

I think DanTt hit it. [GROUP]_{# @ /% Enter should let you keep the proportionality of the sub channels while still allowing you to raise and lower levels. At least in theory.}

 

[porkchop]

On the Maxxyz with it's motorized faders, you could do this if you use a lot of macros, but then you would have no control over fade times (they'd basically all be time 0 Q's). I think the other methods mentioned would be better.

 

[lwinters630]

First, I'm new here, so hello!
. I want my cues to recall the levels of various submasters, and recalculate where the lights should be based on this at playback time. This way if I change the levels in a submaster, they are changed in all cues using that submaster. Also, if I were to go into a cue where some submasters are up, the fader wing would show me where to move the faders, and once they were in position, they would control the levels of those lights.

on the ETC express/expression and insight, I have used focus points to do what you are asking for. It acts like a group or sub but if you you edit the focal point it will change all the cues that you used the focal point. It also post on the monitor not only the channel and intensity value, it also puts up the focal point. You can then use [focal point]# and take control of that set. If you change the focal point it changes all the cues. You may make several focal points with same channels and different values. IE focal point 20 is your warm FOH at 50%, focal point 21 is at 75% and so on. Mirroring subs to the same # as focal points would let you you have a slide control (however I would just hit [FP] and wheel up or down. The Insight gives you 108 sub-masters handles. You can down load ETC off line editor and try it.

I am just learning the ION as well, but as stated elsewhere in this post, on the ION the PRESET and PALLETS functions much the same way as the focal point.

Still learning and still having fun!

 

[AhClem]

I'm not sure if the BlueLite X1 (full disclosure - I manufacture it) and it's "additive" cue philosophy will help.
Since you assign the cues you create to the submasters, and you can make cues as simple or as complex as possible, you can begin by creating cues that only effect a single channel (e.g. a PAR can dimmer, or the 'RED' channel on a mulit-color LED fixture), slightly more complex cues (e.g. all LED fixtures to 'RED'), or build up cues using as many fixtures as you need. Uo can also use the "Snapshot" feature, to build cues. Assign your "basic" cues to the subs, set the levels you want on your console, snapshot and create a new cue that will then contain all of the devices and the levels of the submasters currently beiing used. Lower all the subs to 0, assign the new cue to an unused sub and as you raise the level to 100% all the fixtures in the cue will respond. If you then raise any of the other submasters, that parameter(s) will be added to the look which can then be snapshotted as yet a more complex cue. If you'd like to test it you can download the software for free and if you'd like, I can help you experiment using Capture Sweden's free student edition of their Polar visualization software so you can actually see it in action without the need to make any purchases until you're certain it's what you need.

 

[Esoteric]

on the ETC express/expression and insight, I have used focus points to do what you are asking for. It acts like a group or sub but if you you edit the focal point it will change all the cues that you used the focal point. It also post on the monitor not only the channel and intensity value, it also puts up the focal point. You can then use [focal point]# and take control of that set. If you change the focal point it changes all the cues. You may make several focal points with same channels and different values. IE focal point 20 is your warm FOH at 50%, focal point 21 is at 75% and so on. Mirroring subs to the same # as focal points would let you you have a slide control (however I would just hit [FP] and wheel up or down. The Insight gives you 108 sub-masters handles. You can down load ETC off line editor and try it.

I am just learning the ION as well, but as stated elsewhere in this post, on the ION the PRESET and PALLETS functions much the same way as the focal point.

Still learning and still having fun!

Yeah, I am not sure you will find any console that does what you want with the faders themselves. Once cues are recorded you are pretty much locked into using the kayboard or mouse (or touch screen), but palettes do exactly what you want. Record intensity palette 1 and when you modify intensity palette 1, everywhere you used intensity palette 1 it is changed.