Jands Event 416

[soundlight]

Ah I never thought of using it in conjunction with an I-Cue; ingenious! I say, an I-cue/right arm, with a scroller, a dmx iris, and dmx gobo rotatar would be quite a nice little alternative to a moving light, plus you can switch out and change parts as you like, hmmm.

The DMX iris fits in the iris slot, same place where gobo rotators go, so that wouldn't be possible.

Also, if you put a scroller and an i-cue on a fixture, you have to have a narrow beam so that it's still small enough to be completely reflected by the i-cue mirror, because the scroller adds more distance between the i-cue mirror and the lens tube, so the beam has more time to spread, possibly allowing the edges of the beam to pass around the i-cue. You also have to have special scroller plates on the front of your scrollers, and most don't have this. However, a seachanger in an i-cue fixture with a DMX iris would be great.

The only way to use a scroller with this type of thing would be to use it with a right arm instead of an i-cue.

 

[gafftaper]

Ah I never thought of using it in conjunction with an I-Cue; ingenious! I say, an I-cue/right arm, with a scroller, a dmx iris, and dmx gobo rotatar would be quite a nice little alternative to a moving light, plus you can switch out and change parts as you like, hmmm.

Yeah Charc, as Soundlight just pointed out, you can't really do all of them at once. But you definitely have the idea. How often in a standard theater application do you need all of the features of a $5000+ intelligent light? Most of the time having just a rotator, I-cue/right arm, scroller/seachanger, or a dmx iris will do the trick. I would advise anyone in a high school theater (who isn't trying to use them for music like this thread wants to) to spend 20 grand on a few of each of those devices before they go out and start investing in movers. Also educationally they aren't quite as complicated as a mover but you still learn the same patching and programing skills as a mover.

 

[soundlight]

I think that for a high school, it's good to get some dmx toys (2 i-cues, 2 dmx irises, 4 dmx rotators, and maybe some Smart Color scrollers, 8 or 10 is usually a good number), 2 filmFX units, and then 2 or 4 really basic movers - the Elation Focus Spot 250R (at a reasonable $1000USD) is my favorite to recommend - and also get a console that will train them for the real world. This provides the widest educational experience by getting your feet wet in everything.

This way, you can get a full 10-fixture overhead scroller wash, 2 uber-specials that have irises and i-cues, and you can have a warm in one and a cool in the other, or put them in two different locations for different angles of specials. You can also have 4 50-degree fixtures as a frontlight or backlight rotating gobo wash. This works well for almost any dance show, as well as for many plays. Rotating gobos can also add a whole lot of effects to plays.

I have two philosophies on consoles. Philosophy one is that you should get a console that is a dead-on industry standard (etc express, expression, used obsession; strand 300 or 500 series, palette). Philosophy two (which I like better) is that you should get a console that is not an industry standard so that you have to learn how to use it from the ground up. Getting a console that is not an industry standard (Compulite Dlite, LSC maXim) allows you to learn how to deconstruct console logic and figure out how it works, allowing you to apply this to any other new console that you have to figure out without assistance. You will generally be able to get experience on the standard consoles through other local venues and programs.

 

[beam_1973]

I am looking at the 416 because it seems to be a great mix for us because we use mostly conventionals and if we get the grant, 4-8 movers. Originally I was looking at the Hog 1000 but that is very "mover orientated" and I like to mix with a fader per channel for conventionals, and the 1000 only has the 16 master faders. Does anyone have any experience with the 416, and if so is it good/bad.
Also what recommendations do you have for some relatively cheap (or not so cheap) movers?
Tom

I've used the 408 and 416 and yeah, not to bad. I'd like to add another one into the mix as well ... the LSC Maxim MP ... I find the PatPad is really user friendly for moving fixtures, and in scene mode, you effectively get 9 pages of 24 Assign faders (on a 24/48 console).

As for budget on the movers, are you only looking at yokes or mirrors as well??

Cheers
Craig

 

[Sean]

I have two philosophies on consoles. Philosophy one is that you should get a console that is a dead-on industry standard (etc express, expression, used obsession; strand 300 or 500 series, palette). Philosophy two (which I like better) is that you should get a console that is not an industry standard so that you have to learn how to use it from the ground up. Getting a console that is not an industry standard (Compulite Dlite, LSC maXim) allows you to learn how to deconstruct console logic and figure out how it works, allowing you to apply this to any other new console that you have to figure out without assistance. You will generally be able to get experience on the standard consoles through other local venues and programs.

I have to comment on this. I believe very strongly that in an educational setting using gear that is the same or as close to what one would encounter in the "real world" is key. When you sit down at a board for the first time you have to learn it. How does it being "not industry standard" make that experience any better? Really, all it means is you develop a skill set that isn't as useable outside your particular venue. In a PC/Mac world would you have students work on Amiga machines just so they learn "something else"?

You also mention Apollo scrollers. I'm curious as to why. I've been working professionally for almost 10 years and have yet to see any Apollo scrollers, other than at product demos/LDI. And this is across many venues and environments.

In terms of other gear that shows up in schools, but not much in the "real world," I've never, or only occasionally seen:

Any conventional console other than ETC or Strand (Colortran Encores a few times, but that was 9 years ago). And not many Strand at all.
Strand SL's
Non-Wybron scrollers (other than a couple Chroma-Q's)
Altman Shakespeares
Anything made by Behringer
Any "non-PAR" PAR other than Source-Four PARs
Moving lights made by anyone other than: Martin, VL, Highend, ETC, Clay Paky
Source-Four Juniors
Anything make by Lehigh Electric
Anything made by NSI
Anything made by Leviton


I know it isn't always good to "follow the herd," but for those of you tasked with selecting gear for educational institutions: buy the gear that's being used. It will make the students' experiences that much more useful to them when they leave, and make supporting the gear easier for you.

And whoever out there is still requesting 360Q's (yes, they are still being sold) ought to be shot.

My $.02.

--Sean

 

[soundlight]

Apollo SmartColor scrollers are excellent. Very, very low noise, very little need to re-align the gel strings, and good stock gel strings. We've got 12 of them at the college that I'm going to, and the work a whole lot better than our Chroma-Q's in terms of reliability, noise, and gel string alignment retention.

And about my weird console philosophy - on all of the standard consoles, there's usually someone who can teach it to you nice and easy. I learned how to use the express from someone else in ten minutes flat. I could record cues, subs, groups, effects; set times, waits, follows, etc for cues; I could assign effects to subs, set properties of subs, etc. And the only console that I'd ever worked on before was a Lightronics Crapbox 5000X SOL. I also know for a fact that it would have taken me alot longer to learn all of that by the manual.

And I wouldn't reccomend just plopping any no-name console in a school. I've done very extensive research (everything short of actually using it) on the Compulite D-lite, as I really like it as a viable competitor in terms of ML functions, fader-per-channel allocations, and ease of use to the ETC Express. Compulite is usually known for their Vector series of consoles, which go out on alot of big tours. Bryan Hartley uses a Vector Red linked to a Vector Blue and a timecode feed for TSO. However, in my opinion, this nice little product of theirs is an undiscovered gem. I'm sure that most of you have barely scratched the surface on what it is and what it is capable of. In short, I don't recommend things haphazardly. For instance, I wouldn't recommend one of the new Leviton consoles, because I don't know enough about them, but I do know that they're just a buyout of another company that no one knows about. I wouldn't reccomend an NSI console because the manual tries to set you chasing your tail and using their larger consoles (Melange, MC-2448) is not a fun experience. Also, if the real world doesn't have quite a few of them out there, why is Compulite still making them as a product?

Also, I am far from the first to mention the LSC consoles. They've been mentioned by a few folks here, and they're making significant headway in the US market now. Applied NN (da folks who make Applied trussing & towers) and All Pro Sound (retailer and installer based in Florida) are the folks behind this effort, and the console is really an excellent console, and it's easy to use.

And no, I wouldn't have them work on Amiga machines, but rather Sun/Unix/Linux machines, to get used to working on other platforms, but they'd also work on macs and PC's. I made a point of doing that myself, and it weirdly ended up helping me understand more console programming logic.

Just like I think that if your school doesn't have an ETC or strand, you should make a point of working at/volunteering for venues that do.

I usually live in the niche environments of the real world, but I've seen old manual boards, Lightronics boards, NSI boards, and Colortran boards in quite a few real world locations. I've also seen shakespeares and SL's in real world locations. But this thread is not a place to have a battle over those!!!!

Also, in college, I made a point of digging out the old LP-90 to use for a student showcase show just so that I got experience on it, and could add another board to my resume.

However, I do see your point on the board philosophy. I wouldn't make the students work on just sun/unix machines, I'd have them work on all platforms. So, basically, if you don't use an express/expression/obsession/newer strand board in another venue, then get an express. If you do, then get something different, but still just as easy to learn. But, as I also mentioned, why would Compulite, an amazing console designer and manufacturer, be making the Dlite if no one was gonna buy it??

Dern, that was a long post!

 

[Sean]

Apollo SmartColor scrollers are excellent. Very, very low noise, very little need to re-align the gel strings, and good stock gel strings. We've got 12 of them at the college that I'm going to, and the work a whole lot better than our Chroma-Q's in terms of reliability, noise, and gel string alignment retention.

I never said anything about the quality of Apollo scrollers. The stuff I've seen from Apollo has all been decent. They are not, however, widely used. I do have to question the "stock gel" comment. Who cares what the stock string is? Order your own.

Yes, the Chroma-Q's are pretty crappy.

And I wouldn't reccomend just plopping any no-name console in a school. I've done very extensive research (everything short of actually using it) on the Compulite D-lite, as I really like it as a viable competitor in terms of ML functions, fader-per-channel allocations, and ease of use to the ETC Express. Compulite is usually known for their Vector series of consoles, which go out on alot of big tours. Bryan Hartley uses a Vector Red linked to a Vector Blue and a timecode feed for TSO. However, in my opinion, this nice little product of theirs is an undiscovered gem.

That's fine. I know I'm a "few years" out of school, but really, how many movers vs. conventionals does a typical academic theatre have (HS and college)?
Every product is going to have a "someone" that uses it. Do you know if Bryan actually CHOSE that console? Or was it some deal that got the producer a cheap deal, and he was told to use it? That's the way these things often work. For every show out with a Compulite, I'd wager there are ten out with a GrandMA or Hog. That doesn't mean there's something wrong with the product at all. It does mean, however, that the student will most likely not see that board....possibly ever...when he/she gets out of school.

Also, if the real world doesn't have quite a few of them out there, why is Compulite still making them as a product?

Because a LOT of projects, especially lower-end and "non-tenant" projects (things like a performing arts center that's being built without a resident company--often the people footing the money for these projects do not hire a real technical staff until the project is well under way....or nearly completed) bid projects as "complete packages". This means the dimmers, distribution, and control are all bid as a single price from manufacturers. That's why there are so many schools in the OH/PA/Western NY with Lehigh Electric systems. Specs often read like the product cut-sheets. "1024+ DMX channels," "network ready," etc. As long as a company has a product that meets the same SPECS as the project, they're considered an EQUAL product by the General Contractor. If the lighting products are in Division 11 (electrical) of the project instead of Division 16 (Special equipment, or something like that), then the GC and the Electrical contractor can decide which products to purchase. This decision is often contractually not required to be approved by the OWNER. The GC bids the project, so if a product meets spec and is $2,000 cheaper, then he/she just made a $2,000 profit. Also, and probably more important here: There are often significant "encouragments" to use local/domestic products. Compulite is in Israel. I'm sure they sell a lot of gear there. Just like Strand sells a LOT of stuff in the UK, but less (proportionally) in the US.

Also, I am far from the first to mention the LSC consoles. They've been mentioned by a few folks here, and they're making significant headway in the US market now.

Really? Where? They have one North American Distributer. One.

Also, in college, I made a point of digging out the old LP-90 to use for a student showcase show just so that I got experience on it, and could add another board to my resume.

The root of much of the last 20 years of tracking console thought--the LP. That was a good decision on your part. Now, the Obsession should mostly make sense to you.

So, basically, if you don't use an express/expression/obsession/newer strand board in another venue, then get an express. If you do, then get something different, but still just as easy to learn.

Remember, as the person spec'ing gear, you have little-to-no control over what other consoles the students will go out and discover. Make the "widest net" choice. Look at it a different way: if you have an Express, and the student goes to another space that also has one he/she will now be "THE person" that knows about the board. A huge confidence boost.

Wow, I should go to bed. I'm beat!

--Sean

 

[soundlight]

Hmmm...don't want to take over the whole thread, this could go on forever, so I'll just briefly counter everything in a list

~Wasn't saying that you said the apollo scrollers were bad, just sticking up for them to people who hadn't heard of them. Also, what GC orders a custom string for a high school job? It's a theater. They are having someone spec scrollers for them. Are they gonna go for a custom or stock gel string?
~Unless they pay him to tell people that come down to meet him at concerts after the show that he prefers the Compulite, then he does prefer it.
~GC's have been screwing theatre's over for years, tis true. Lehigh electric is possibly the perfect example. Local company, low sales compared to some others, so they catch the high school market around them! But I haven't heard of many Compulite dimmers in the US!
~Point taken 'bout foreign console sales. I did know that Compulite was in Israel, but I didn't fully process that.
~And with that: by significant headway I mean this: there was a rather large article about it (probably payed for by either AppliedNN or All Pro Sound) about APS putting alot of maXims in churches in the southeast. They're a huge installer for churches (that's their main gig), and also sell the consoles on their site. The other thing that I mean by major headway is that they're actually available on many retail sites now. Before applied took the contract to be the sole US distributor, they really weren't available in the US. But, since the person who posted this thread is in Australia, there shouldn't be a problem.

This is fun!

 

[tomed101]

I've used the 408 and 416 and yeah, not to bad. I'd like to add another one into the mix as well ... the LSC Maxim MP ... I find the PatPad is really user friendly for moving fixtures, and in scene mode, you effectively get 9 pages of 24 Assign faders (on a 24/48 console).
As for budget on the movers, are you only looking at yokes or mirrors as well??
Cheers
Craig

I am thinking yokes. I need a fair bit of power and maneuverability. How do mirrors perform in terms of light output, focusability and color?

 

[icewolf08]

I am thinking yokes. I need a fair bit of power and maneuverability. How do mirrors perform in terms of light output, focusability and color?

I haven't really looked at mirror/scanner fixtures in a while, but from what I remember, the ones that have high outputs and decent effects packages are on the same price level as many of the low to mid-range moving heads. Take the Martin 918 for example, it's guts are exactly the same as the Mac 500 but they stuck a mirror on it instead of a yoke.

Scanners can be useful. They are generally faster as they have less to move. They don't have quite as much space requirements as they don't move, and they are often quieter. You can get scanners that have basically the same feature set as a moving head. You just need to think about where and how you hang them so that you can hit everywhere you want to.

 

[soundlight]

The reason that scanners have left the high end market for many touring applications is that they are harder to repeatably focus. With a moving head, you just hang it straight down. With scanners, it's usually a matter of aligning the yoke to the body at a specific angle.

However, for some school applications, they're great, especially because they generally cost less. I just generally like heads for most shows, but for shows that need really quick movement and fast effects, scanners are great. They generally also have a smaller range of movement, so if they have good stepper motors, scanners are usually more accurate if the yokes are tight and won't slip.

The Martin 918 is a rock solid unit, and has a great set of features.

 

[beam_1973]

I am thinking yokes. I need a fair bit of power and maneuverability. How do mirrors perform in terms of light output, focusability and color?

Light output - yes, they can be comparable, provided you are comparing similarly lamped fixtures.
Focusability - both can be motorised if thats what you mean, otherwise, only issue with a mirror is having to get the bodies orientated with other mirrors to keep home positions and general focus points easily aligned.
Colour - again, back to how each fixture is lamped (and associated colour temperature) and how the colour is generated (similar dichroic filters, CMY etc).

As an example, Mac 250 Krypton (head) is very similar to Mac MX-10 (mirror) while the Mac 250 Entour is same lamp just additional features like more gobos, bout overall output is similar. The MX10 just gets the beam from Point A to Point B faster but obviously doesnt have the same pan/tilt capabilty that the 250's do.

I haven't really looked at mirror/scanner fixtures in a while, but from what I remember, the ones that have high outputs and decent effects packages are on the same price level as many of the low to mid-range moving heads.

Yeah ... it would cost me the same to hire in MX-10's as it would to hire in 250's. Recently, I have been using some inhouse ClayPaky HPE Miniscans (lamped with 300w HTI's). Output is OK but can get lost a bit in the PAR56 washes sometimes (and the gobos can be a little boring). Just a matter of having to clean two external areas of haze/dust residues on the scanners(lense and mirror) rather than just the lense of the yokes. Only other hassle on the HPE's is non-motorised focus (but I think the new model HP3 has overcome this) ... but otherwise, movement and speed is plenty for what I need.