The above Ad will no longer appear after you Sign Up for Free!

Lamp recommendations?

Discussion in 'Lighting and Electrics' started by rustystuff, Jul 16, 2006.

  1. rustystuff

    rustystuff Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Our church just installed a new lighting system using Source Four Jr's as the primary instruments. How should I re-lamp the existing L & E 6x9's to get a similar output? (Or is that a waste of time?) Any suggestions would be appreciated!
     
  2. Footer

    Footer Senior Team Senior Team Premium Member

    Messages:
    9,450
    Likes Received:
    1,856
    Location:
    Saratoga Springs, NY
    Well, you will never get the same light output out of an old LEKO compared two a new s4. You can put in some color correction in the s4's to get them to match color temperature. Play with different gel configurations and see what happens. Also, make sure that the 6x9's are benched to there maximuns. If you could get the same light quality out of older fixtures we would not all be trying to get our mits on s4's.
     
  3. drawstuf99

    drawstuf99 Active Member

    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    3
    As footer mentions, try doing some sort of color correction. The lights usually give off an old amber color, unlike the source fours which actually burn dang close to white. Try adding some blue that will mix with the amber to make a more white color, then gel to get the same color as the source four. Or add amber to a S4, either way.

    I am not so sure, but with our Juniors, they start to lose their intensity quite fast as you get farther from your subject, somewhat unlike the regular 19* ones, for example. So this may help you with matching intensity. That could be just a bad bulb in our few juniors, but it seems that it's worked that way for me at least.
     
  4. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,212
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Illinois
    Na, it's easy to match the output and color temperature - just need the right lamp for your needs. For color temperature, the FLK/HX-600, GLC/HX-604 and HPR 575/115 all have this 3,200̊K color temperature and 115v rating to match up with a HPL 575w/115v+. The FLK & HPR also have very close to the same luminous output. GLC is only 15,500 Lumens in output but has a similar sized 9x7.5mm but more rugged C-13D filament.

    Assuming we are talking about the high output 575w versions of this lamp and not the long life versions which you should be using out of cost effectiveness given a lower budget. Let’s face it a few less lumens or degrees in color temperature are not going to make or break a show. Not being able to afford lamps thus less fixtures available will effect the show. First is academic for comparison in what lamps you should not be using. Far below would be the lamps recommended for each fixture given a lower budget application.


    For the high output HPL 575w/115v+ \ HPL 575w/C version:
    In the L&E fixture, you won't be able to match the graphic quality of the point source of light coming out of the HPL lamp in a S-4 with it's more refined optics and smaller filament for say doing gobo patterns; but for color temperature and luminous output plus just as flat a field of the beam install a HPR 575w/115v lamp into the L&E fixture and it's going to be remarkably similar much less much easier to bench focus.

    A HPL 575w/C with it's G-9.5 HS* lamp base has about a 9x6mm to 9.5x6.8 \ 4-C8 filament. 3,250̊K; 16,520 Lumen; 300hr in life. (Slight variations in the above specs dependant upon brand.)

    A HPR 575/115 with a standard G-9.5 lamp base is a 6.35x11.68mm \ cc-8 filament. 3,200̊K; 16,500Lum +Reflector; 300hr lamp life

    Note both start with a very similar color temperature, voltage, lamp life and luminous output. Just a question of a internal lamp reflector in a less efficient fixture verses that of a more efficient fixture and filament but without the internal lamp reflector.



    A Osram #54549 HPR 575/115 lamp is based on a FLK/HX-600 575w/115v lamp. It's a slightly less efficient lamp type than the HPL given a larger filament size but the HPR un-like any other lamp currently available has a internal reflector inside the lamp between lamp base and filament which completes the reflector's ellipsoid shape in fixture. This small reflector disc at the center axis point increases lamp output in a Leko by 15 to 20% and makes for a more solid flat field of distribution even in a less efficient lighting fixture.

    The GLC lamp will have been a better lamp to install the reflector on given it's smaller filament size and is still a better 575w lamp to do patterns with for the L&E fixtures but the HPR on the whole even in a less efficient fixture by way of my testing has more punch than that of a HPL lamp. This meaning given two similar beam angles - you can see the HPR beam of light clearly inside of a HPL beam of light when meshed together.

    You can match outputs and color temperatures even if mixing second and third generation fixtures by way mixing third and fourth generation lamps. The HPR 575/115 lamp is very impressive for doing so. Also and otherwise, the S-4 Junior is only rated for 575w. Want more output, install a 750w/115v GLD or better yet Phillips #13420-5 #6981P lamp (designed for the High End Systems Color Command) into the L&E fixture and it will easily out punch that of a S-4 Junior. It would also have something similar in output to that of a HPL 750w lamp in the same voltage.



    But again, this is all academic, you probably should not be using any lamps rated for 300hr’s at 115v. Instead use 115v lamps rated for 1,500 to 2,000 hours for cost effectiveness. Avoid 120v HPL lamps unless doing non-dimming.

    The HPL 575w/115vX \ HPL 575w/X lamp is a much better choice of S-4 fixture lamp for cost effective situations. 3,050̊K; 12,360 Lumens; 1,500 to 2,000 hours dependant upon the brand. Get over it, what looks blue/white in comparison to other 120v lamps is simply not cost effective. This much less will still look bright on stage.

    For the L&E fixture, use a either Phillips GLA lamp at 3,100̊K; 13,500 Lumen; 1,500hr, or for longer life a Osram GLA/HP-600X at 3,050̊K; 10,500 Lum; 2,000hr. GE/Thorn and Ushio also make them and lie somewhere in between by way of output verses lamp life. The GLA series of lamp won’t have as much output as the HPL but will be close enough.

    Otherwise if you have the amperage available, can’t beat the 750w/115v GLE by GE/Thorn.
     
  5. ship

    ship Senior Team Emeritus Premium Member

    Messages:
    6,212
    Likes Received:
    481
    Location:
    Illinois
    Color correction in color temperature is more than just some blue gel, it's color temperature boosting or color temperature minusing gel (CTB +/- gel) that does it. Also Color temperature does not change no matter how distant you get. It's only light - luminous output no matter what fixture you are using that suffers from the Law of Squares in reducing output. Also remeber that any gel you add to a fixture reduces to some extent the light output of the fixture. Color correct for the lesser color temperature and you now widen the gap in light output out of the L&E fixture - this given say a 1/8 CTB blue gel will more closely match up to the HPL lamp. This much less once the color temperature correction gel is added, you than can add the same coloring gel to double gel the fixture in making the L&E have the same color in output as that of the S-4 with a single gel. This also before we get into dimming. Not very easy to do or the best of things to try in matching.

    S-4 fixtures with 115v lamps burn at a higher color temperature first because of their high output lamps rated for a higher color temperature and luminous output but much shorter lamp life and second because of their over voltlage operation. Given a line voltage loss in the cable and after the dimmer from a 120v source you will probably be lucky to see 118v at the fixture. Given this, a 120v lamp when operated at 118v will be even if the same color temperature which the most common EHD long life lamp is not, less by a ratio of 0.4% in color temperature per 1% variation in voltage. This and 3.6% less in luminouse output for the same variation in voltage. On the other hand the 2,000 hour lamp rated for 120v when operated at 118v will last 12% longer per percentage in voltage.

    This all as opposed to the 300hour normal HPL lamp rated for more in output and color temperature and all bosted by the same ratios when the 115v lamp is operated at 118v. You now get a lamp operating at a higher yet color temperature and luminous output but also a lamp that will be lucky to see 300hrs if operated at around 118v. (Lamp hours all a misleading factor given most lamps are dimmed during shows which throws off all expected life factors. Still there is 1,500 to 2,000 hour lamps that are long life, and 300 to 600 hour lamps that are high output and for a budget often not cost effective to be using. This after the voltage rating for the lamp is factored in.)

    That high intensity verses long life expectation is a huge factor both in comparing the 120v long life and only 500w lamp to that of a 115v high output 575w lamp to the other extreme. This all except for lamp efficiency where you exchange output for lamp life and find that a HPL is nice, if you can afford the lamps. The EHC is a better high output 120v lamp for the same lamp hour rating in comparison over that of the EHD, just as the above comparision of the L&E lamping option of the HPR to that of the S-4 Leko.

    Stick with the long life lamps for most theater applications. Blue/white is nice - save the lamps if that's what the fixtures came with for your specials and patterns. Remove the lamps and instead install long life HPL lamps. Perhaps buy a few HPR lamps for a similar high output or even pattern use, otherwise a GLC for this. But for the most part the GLA and HPL long life (X) version are what I recommend.


    Better yet, don't try to make a second generation Leko simulate that of a third Generation Leko. Assuming say a McCandless type of design, one might have say warm and cool from opposing sides of the stage for colors. Do the L&E fixtures say for the warm and the S-4 for the opposing color of cool. Or something like this. Attempting to make the second generation fixtures and lamps no matter the type match that of the third generation fixtures is not of much value and a waste of time. Instead even make the older fixtures if the same purpose say get re-lamped and light say the upstage with the S-4 lighting the down stage. This way your output can taper off some. Also just choose a more satuated color for the S-4 than that of the L&E should they need to match up somewhat.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2006
  6. rustystuff

    rustystuff Member

    Messages:
    51
    Likes Received:
    6
    Location:
    Orlando, FL
    Thanks to all for the suggestions; they are greatly appreciated!

    Ship, your knowledge of lamps and etc are truly encyclopedic. (I'm not sure if that's a real word, but it should be...)
     

Share This Page

  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice