Conventional Fixtures LED Cyc light help

My theatre has a cyc that is 26'x50' and I want to get LED cyc lights, however the only ones that I can think of that would allow great coverage would be the Chroma-Q ColorForce Striplight, but that would put us back close to $33,000 which we don't have. What are my other options??

Please and thank you!
 
I did a thesis project on this. My favorite besides the Chroma-Q ColorForce (which my audience chose as their favorite) was the Altman SpectraCYC.

Take a good look at the Chauvet COLORado Batten 72 and 144. BillESC may even have some other economy options. Overall, the lower the price range the more you need a continuos LED strip, likely from both top and bottom, to get the coverage of conventional cyc lights.
 
My theatre has a cyc that is 26'x50' and I want to get LED cyc lights, however the only ones that I can think of that would allow great coverage would be the Chroma-Q ColorForce Striplight, but that would put us back close to $33,000 which we don't have. What are my other options??

Please and thank you!

I love the ColorKinetics Colorblaze. I think they are very powerful, and very versatile in their settings. However, it doesn't help you on cost. Keep in mind, when it comes to LEDs, you get what you pay for. Those cheap LED fixtures won't last, and will cost you more money in the long run.
 
I did a thesis project on this. My favorite besides the Chroma-Q ColorForce (which my audience chose as their favorite) was the Altman SpectraCYC.

Take a good look at the Chauvet COLORado Batten 72 and 144. BillESC may even have some other economy options. Overall, the lower the price range the more you need a continuos LED strip, likely from both top and bottom, to get the coverage of conventional cyc lights.

I'm glad you brought up the Altman SpectraCyc. I was just looking at those, but it didn't tell me how far the light throws. I know that the Chroma-Q would through the entire height of the cyc...do you know how far the Altman's throw? THANKS!
 
I love the ColorKinetics Colorblaze. I think they are very powerful, and very versatile in their settings. However, it doesn't help you on cost. Keep in mind, when it comes to LEDs, you get what you pay for. Those cheap LED fixtures won't last, and will cost you more money in the long run.

Ohh trust me, I've been trying to explain the cost of electricity, gel, labor to replace the gel, etc. and how the LED's will pay for themselves quickly, but it's the matter of coming up with the money all at once. It's not like I can slowly add in the LED with what I have; you have to get them all at once!
 
If you don't have big cash to spend on high end LEDs, but do have available dimmers, I'd stick with conventional cyc lights.

BTW when I demoed the Spectra Cyc a couple years ago, I thought the coverage was great, but the colors not saturated enough. But I tend to go pretty bold on a cyc, especially for dance or modern musicals.
 
BillESC has some pretty impressive Chinese imports that you might want to look at. But the simple truth is LED's are still too expensive for most of us at this point. The price is coming down and yes the long term savings is good, but for most of us the price is just not there yet. With one exception: If you are installing a whole system then the price of LED's becomes much more competitive because you don't need to buy dimmer racks, and you can install less power to the theater as well.
 
If you don't have big cash to spend on high end LEDs, but do have available dimmers, I'd stick with conventional cyc lights.

BTW when I demoed the Spectra Cyc a couple years ago, I thought the coverage was great, but the colors not saturated enough. But I tend to go pretty bold on a cyc, especially for dance or modern musicals.


Innntteeeresting.....This is a dance theatre, so I want saturated (as saturated) as I can get.
 
You need to demo some of the fixtures. One unknown is hanging position and the distance of the cyc light electric to the cyc, as well as do you require a ground row ?.

LED's can be great, but probably only cost effective in terms of reduced power used. I can't see that the labor, gel and lamps saved would pay for the huge cost of the fixtures over the short term.

Distance and hanging position will dictate whether you use a Spectra Cyc wash unit, or Color Force or ETC Selador units, on a position closer to the cyc. Both can work equally well. I use 12 MR16 L&E Mini-Strips at about 3' from a 30x50 cyc and get very good and even coverage. The Color Force and Selador strips are designed around this type of application and come with lenses to get greater control of the coverage.

One thought if and when you get to demo is to watch the dimming at very low intensities. A well designed fixture will have smooth dimming, where as a cheaper design will get "steppy".

As well, are all your events designed new ?, or do you have touring/outside events using the space ?, especially if they walk in with a show pre-cued. A major issue that develops with LED's is how to match color for the cyc for an event that is designed around incandescent cyc lighting using 3 particular colors, whose intensities change and very on a cue to cue basis. Trying to match the cues to LED's can be time consuming as you have to do it cue by cue, attempting to re-create the incandescent look to the LED's.
 
Last edited:
You need to demo some of the fixtures. One unknown is hanging position and the distance of the cyc light electric to the cyc, as well as do you require a ground row ?.

LED's can be great, but probably only cost effective in terms of reduced power used. I can't see that the labor, gel and lamps saved would pay for the huge cost of the fixtures over the short term.

Distance and hanging position will dictate whether you use a Spectra Cyc wash unit, or Color Force or ETC Selador units, on a position closer to the cyc. Both can work equally well. I use 12 MR16 L&E Mini-Strips at about 3' from a 30x50 cyc and get very good and even coverage. The Color Force and Selador strips are designed around this type of application and come with lenses to get greater control of the coverage.

One thought if and when you get to demo is to watch the dimming at very low intensities. A well designed fixture will have smooth dimming, where as a cheaper design will get "steppy".

As well, are all your events designed new ?, or do you have touring/outside events using the space ?, especially if they walk in with a show pre-cued. A major issue that develops with LED's is how to match color for the cyc for an event that is designed around incandescent cyc lighting using 3 particular colors, whose intensities change and very on a cue to cue basis. Trying to match the cues to LED's can be time consuming as you have to do it cue by cue, attempting to re-create the incandescent look to the LED's.


This is wonderful.....I actually did a demo with the Selador's, but because our cyc electric is so far from the cyc, the coverage wasn't what I needed. I haven't heard of the MR16, so I will look into that.

GREAT advice about the dimming...something I wouldn't have thought of until I actually saw it with my own eyes.

As of now, we are just in house, in that anyone that comes in is community based or interdepartmental and have to use what we have. There has been some talk about potentially opening up to allow for tours, but the theatre belongs to the School of Dance, so the priority is the dance dpt.

Ideally, we want to move it all to LED. I'm hoping within the next couple of years, the LED Source 4 will be fine tuned and cheaper that the transition to all LED can happen! High hopes and dreams, but it gives me something to look forward to! ;)
 
This is wonderful.....I actually did a demo with the Selador's, but because our cyc electric is so far from the cyc, the coverage wasn't what I needed. I haven't heard of the MR16, so I will look into that.

GREAT advice about the dimming...something I wouldn't have thought of until I actually saw it with my own eyes.

As of now, we are just in house, in that anyone that comes in is community based or interdepartmental and have to use what we have. There has been some talk about potentially opening up to allow for tours, but the theatre belongs to the School of Dance, so the priority is the dance dpt.

Ideally, we want to move it all to LED. I'm hoping within the next couple of years, the LED Source 4 will be fine tuned and cheaper that the transition to all LED can happen! High opes and dreams, but it gives me something to look forward to! ;)

If the Selador was too far away, then a ColorForce probably won't work either and I doubt an MR16 Mini-Strip would as well.

Your options then become the Spectra Cyc, or changing the electric to a pipe closer to the cyc, which if feasible, might be a good option, given the simplified power needs of LED.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
BTW when I demoed the Spectra Cyc a couple years ago, I thought the coverage was great, but the colors not saturated enough. But I tend to go pretty bold on a cyc, especially for dance or modern musicals.

Nick, you should come by and check out our Spectra's. We find they are best at the saturated colors. They don't do as well with the more subtle pastels.

LilH, we find they work best no closer than 4'-5' away from the Cyc. Our house is not large and the cyc is only 23'h x 40'w (lit area) and even at that relatively low height we find a ground row makes a huge difference.

Paul
 
You guys have been great and have given me some wonderful advice...thanks! I am setting up a demo with Altman to bring in the Spectra Cyc....I think that if we were a theatre that would find multiple uses for our lights, some of the other options would be the way to go, but we keep generally keep the same hang for most of the year, so something like the Spectra would be nice.

No closer than 4-5ft away sounds good with me! We do have a pipe closer to the cyc that could potentially sub as our cyc electric, but we often use that for our scrim or adjusting of the cyc if there are drops that need to be hung.
 
I spent the last year thinking about this for my theatre, and just got the funding to go ahead. I considered the Colorado 144 and the Chroma-Q, Selador classic, and Elation but in the end I decided to light our cyclorama with 16 Selador D40 Vivids, which may seem like a strange choice to many. At this point, it is still a gamble since the order is being placed next week. Here's why I made the decision I made.

The venue is a 350 seat auditorium, used primarily by an all-volunteer community theatre group to perform mostly stage plays, with small-scale musicals at Christmas and in the early summer. We also rent to a number of local dance schools. The rest of the use is the odd one-off rental. There is a rehearsal room/black box studio adjacent to the auditorium. Lighting gear is portable between the 2 spaces. The cyclorama might get used for about half of those shows. Some of the time it gets used like a wall of colour. Other times it is used to build naturalistic skies, seen through windows on box sets, and stuff like that. Our cyclorama is 24'x40' with the most convenient lighting batten located 4' from the face. There is 6" between the cyclorama and the back wall so back lighting is not feasible. I provide this background because it is important to understand how the space is used, and how the cyclorama is likely to be used.

The D40s initially seemed like a really expensive option. Then I started doing the math. A D40 costs more per cell (I define a cell as an individually controllable segment) than any of the other options, especially when you add in lensing, cabling, and hardware. Part of the challenge for me was figuring out how to compare units, so I spent time determining at $/lux using MAP pricing at a distance of 5 meters (15') for all of the units, just to be sure I was dealing with something approximating an apples-to-apples comparison for intensity. It turns out that the range is $0.23 to $.28 for all the units that I compared. In other words, the cost for intensity is pretty much constant. The Chroma-Q's win in this category. The D40s lose. Surprisingly, the Selador classics compare quite favourably.

Then I looked at the dimming curves and dimming technology. Others in this thread have discussed the steppiness at low intensities with some fixtures. The unmentioned consequence of a bad dimming curve is poor colour mixing in the intermediate ranges. We have some Blizzard Pucks, which are at the bottom end of the LED technology price range. They are good value for what they are, but it is not possible to get good intermediate colour mixing out of them. They look nice with the 6 primary+secondary colours, except for yellow. Everything else is a crap shoot. All the units I considered were at least RGBA. All should use PWM technologies at high frequencies, to avoid flicker on video cameras.

If you are happy with a monochromatic cyclorama then all the units work well. If you want 2 or 3 horizon lines then you need to start doubling up units. The ColoRADO 144, being 2 ColoRADO 72s in a common housing with independent lensing of the 2 arrays, ought to be capable of independent control of the top and bottom cells, but it isn't. If anybody from Chauvet is following this forum, consider this a feature request. For total cost, the D40s with a mix of lenses wins.

Flexibility is important to me. If I were a rental shop, or putting together a package for a tour then I would opt for one of the linear array units. As a stock unit in a venue, there is value in being able to use the fixtures in multiple roles. Lower a batten and swing a fixture around, swap lenses as necessary and the cyclorama lights are a back light. Pull them down and put them on floor as a ground row. Move them downstage and use them as a strip light behind a scrim. Separate them and use them as side lighting or to wash walls of a set. Most of the LED strips can do this with varying degrees of success. Behaving more like a PAR, with lensing to behave like a flood, the D40 wins.

Noise also matters. A convection-cooled unit is better than a fan-cooled unit in our space. For a cyclorama, fans don't matter too much since the units are far upstage and tucked behind a lot of noise-absorbing fabric. If used in another location, the noise might matter. Unfortunately, there is no industry-standard comparison of noise so it is difficult to compare units on this basis. The D40s, being convection-cooled, are guaranteed to be silent.

I plan to get at least a decade of use out of these units in their primary role, and expect them to last for much longer than that. Any of the units pay for themselves in that time on electricity savings. For me, this is part of a larger purchase that is replacing our top, side, and scroller systems.
 
Last edited:
Elation is releasing a beautiful purpose built LED Cyc light in April. Demo I saw was beautiful.
 
Part of the challenge for me was figuring out how to compare units, so I spent time determining at $/lux using MAP pricing at a distance of 5 meters (15') for all of the units, just to be sure I was dealing with something approximating an apples-to-apples comparison for intensity. It turns out that the range is $0.23 to $.28 for all the units that I compared. In other words, the cost for intensity is pretty much constant. The Chroma-Q's win in this category. The D40s lose. Surprisingly, the Selador classics compare quite favourably.

I think this is a really good idea. I tried this with a Colorblast12, and I couldn't seem to get your $0.23 to $0.28 numbers. The data sheet for a Colorblast12 10degrees lens shows 107 center beam footcandles at 16feet (which is at least close to the 15feet you used)... that calculates to about 1150lux. If I use your range of ratios, that means a Colorblast12 should cost in the range of $265 to $322... which I'm pretty sure isn't right, they're like double that, or more, (I think). Is this because your ratio isn't intended for the more upscale units? At least that's what I assumed, until you mentioned that the Selador compares favorably..
 
Last edited:
I think this is a really good idea. I tried this with a Colorblast12, and I couldn't seem to get your $0.23 to $0.28 numbers. The data sheet for a Colorblast12 10degrees lens shows 107 center beam footcandles at 16feet (which is at least close to the 15feet you used)... that calculates to about 1150lux. If I use your range of ratios, that means a Colorblast12 should cost in the range of $265 to $322... which I'm pretty sure isn't right, they're like double that, or more, (I think). Is this because your ratio isn't intended for the more upscale units? At least that's what I assumed, until you mentioned that the Selador compares favorably..

My math on a Colorblast12 is about 1500 Lux at 15', or $0.53 per Lux based on their publsihed figures and a $800 MAP (I didn't look too hard for the best on-line price), which would be twice most of the units I looked at. It could be the specs I'm looking at are out of date, or Phillips is being very conservative with their engineering. That's the nature of LEDs at the moment.
 
Question, you say your hanging them from a pipe a few feet away, have you considered hanging them on the same pipe as the cyc itself?
 
In addition to the stepiness question there are a couple of other things I would watch out for

1 fan noise. Plug in a unit and listen to it. Some have no fans. Some have quiet fans. Some are so noisy you can't hear yourself think

2. Try to mix an amber. Somehow Led fixtures don't make a very good amber even if it has an amber circuit

3. This may have been mentioned, but don't plan on mixing old and newer units. The colors and intensity will not match
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back