LED Lighting Questions for Purchase

[dwardMICS]

Hey smart people!

Question: Is there a purpose for a pure white LED fixture in a performance venue? When paired with a colored LED as the other area light?

I am a high school theatre teacher with a passion for design and production! For years, due to budget cuts and lack there of, I have been living with the good ole incandescent fixtures. Now at a new school, I am being asked to give informed opinions about LED lights! Yarg!

While I've been able to educate myself in many areas, LED lighting design techniques are still elusive! When I was dropping gels, we never left one open, we'd color all the lights we needed to. The vendor offering us a quote is telling me that it's for mixing with the LED light.

Is this a thing? Have things changed with LEDs that much? I'm coming from a position of stone age ignorance!

Thank you!

 

[BillESC]

The next best thing in LED lighting is only 24 hours away.

Pick a level (cost/feature) of fixture that will allow you to experiment and learn.

 

[dwardMICS]

The next best thing in LED lighting is only 24 hours away.

Pick a level (cost/feature) of fixture that will allow you to experiment and learn.

But what about using a white only LED and a color LED to light the same area? Does that many any sense? I'm trying to figure out where the vendor is coming from regarding their quote and set up.

 

[Morte615]

In some cases a Multi color LED light does not create a good white. Depending on how they mix and how the fixture is designed the whites can be off color as well as occasionally cast multi color shadows. So if it's in an area where they need a good solid white, and for one reason or another (usually budget) they went with a color fixture that did not cast a good white they may add a dedicated white fixture to fill that function.

There are lots of Color LED fixtures that produce excellent white, but they are usually more expensive. So you have to weigh the need for good white against the cost of a separate fixture when needed.

 

[dwardMICS]

OK. They are quoting Chauvet Ovation E-190WW (white fixture) with the Ovation E-910FC. The E-910 has the lime elements, but just don't know enough about LED lights to know if a dedicated white light is necessary.

Thank you for your thoughtful responses!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

I could only answer your question if I knew a little bit about the existing infrastructure of the space, unless of course that can be all new. My renovation, supplementation, transition work varies a lot. For instance, I'd be hard pressed to not recommend all multi-color sky drop (cyc) lights and the necessary infrastructure changes, but I'm sure there are exceptions, and even that needs a console up to the task of LEDs. On the other hand, FOH might be any one of a number of options, depending on what's there, what uses rely on it, etc. If you have a bunch of quartz Source 4's you'd have to consider the 4WRD retrofit - like 3-4 of those for the price of one Source 4 LED? And all sorts of questions about mixing and matching manufacturers - something some do as a matter of course and others find unacceptable. And it all changes in a month, and the next month, and so on.

Of course were it me, I'd look first at the suitability of the lighting positions, access, safety, etc., and a whole host of other things that could be a higher priority, but lucky of you perhaps it's not me.

 

[Les]

I don't really understand the concept. I'm assuming a McCandless-style plot with one side being E-910FC and the other being E190WW? I'd sooner have two white units and gel as needed; using an RGBAW LED "par" as top light. Theory being that all front area lights should be as similar as possible. As budget allows, throw in FC units as specials. I find a good, even front wash much more useful than full spectrum of color per area front light. I feel like you'd lose some evenness if you have 50/50 fixtures, and then you have to keep up with what goes where, being careful to not group like-fixtures together for one area.

I would rent/demo a full-color unit and see if it provides a good white before committing to some mix that the vendor recommends.

 

[RickR]

Schools often need non theatrical lighting. Music groups, classes, meetings and such want simple white light purely for visibility. White LEDs can be very useful if this is a big part of the facilities purpose.

White LEDs also let you use traditional gel for colors that are outside the LED range, or more complex than narrow band sources can mix.

 

[dwardMICS]

I could only answer your question if I knew a little bit about the existing infrastructure of the space, unless of course that can be all new. .

We are taking a gym and adding auditorium features to it. We're in the process of a fairly major overhaul. It will still need to function like a gym for basketball and gym class, and then we will bring in a stage for performances. Already, we have an extensive set of mobile curtains to block the majority of daylight from the space. Sadly, a purpose built theatre is not in the works. We also share the space with a church on the weekends, but they use their own set up, and are not interesting in using our set up for their services.

One vendor is suggesting a white light and a regular colored LED on each acting area. When I learned McCandless lighting in the early aughts, we used different colors. I just don't know enough about modern lighting design with LEDs to know if things have changed more than I can begin to know!

This is a big, capitol expense project, and I really don't have room to experiment. I am trying to make the best decision for my school, students, and our productions. Thank you for your input!

PS - makes me wonder if I shouldn't re-do my OP and title to: Help, I'm in over my head! LOL!

 

[dwardMICS]

I don't really understand the concept. I'm assuming a McCandless-style plot with one side being E-910FC and the other being E190WW? I'd sooner have two white units and gel as needed; using an RGBAW LED "par" as top light. Theory being that all front area lights should be as similar as possible. As budget allows, throw in FC units as specials. I find a good, even front wash much more useful than full spectrum of color per area front light. I feel like you'd lose some evenness if you have 50/50 fixtures, and then you have to keep up with what goes where, being careful to not group like-fixtures together for one area.

I would rent/demo a full-color unit and see if it provides a good white before committing to some mix that the vendor recommends.

That does sound very interesting as an idea. Our only problem is that it's a gym, and the lights are going to be dead hung in cages, and require a lift to access. As the only theatre teacher and only idiot with a reason to head up there, that's why I'm thinking of the Full Color lights as being the best/only option. Flexibility

We are definitely going to demo stuff though. Thank you Les and RickR. I am probably very guilty of over thinking things!

 

[Evans Poulos]

To clarify: you currently have NO lights, NO dimmer rack, and NO console? So this is everything new from scratch? What's the proposed budget? How much is earmarked for electrical infrastructure? Is there provision for running control wiring for led's? In some spaces, at schools I've been in, it's actually cheaper to install conventionals.

 

[JD]

Let me fill in some concept here as I think it might help:

WHITE LED FIXTURE: Generally, this is a fixture that uses a hybrid LED that contains phosphorus so that it produces a specific color temperature. Sometimes there is a mix of them with different phosphor so that you can adjust the color temp. The fixtures work on standard subtractive color (gels) much like a conventional fixture. They are basically more efficient, but sometimes known gels will produce somewhat unexpected shades. (They are getting better) These fixtures are best used as you would an ERS with low saturation as front specials.

COLOR LED FIXTURE: Generally, these fixtures use Red, Green, and Blue LEDs to achieve their output through additive mixing. Higher end fixtures may use Amber and White LEDs as well. They generally are less accurate at hitting true white (Again, they are getting better), but excel when asked to produce deep colors, especially deep blues. You do not normally use gels with these fixtures as the color is selected by a DMX value. (or set of values) Often, the output is astounding when compared to a conventional fixture if you are trying to get saturated colors. They work better for general wash lighting and cycs.

There is a lot of crossover in these descriptions, but for front specials, focus, gobos, and light shades, the "white" fixtures (with gels) are great. For washes, back, cyc, and side lighting, the color LED fixtures really hit the spot.
Hope this helps.

 

[dwardMICS]

To clarify: you currently have NO lights, NO dimmer rack, and NO console? So this is everything new from scratch? What's the proposed budget? How much is earmarked for electrical infrastructure? Is there provision for running control wiring for led's? In some spaces, at schools I've been in, it's actually cheaper to install conventionals.

We own nothing. While I was hoping to figure out the use of a pure white LED and a color changing one, I am thrilled to get other input and help as well. So far, this has been an excellent resource for new ideas and questions!

My school uses it's gym as a performance space because there is no money or future plans for a purpose built theatre. For lighting, we use the four 36 degree Incandescent Source Four fixtures from the church that rents our space (as well as their sound equipment, but that's another part of the equation!) on two 10' trees. We control with a simple set of elation 2x4 dimmers (2 circuits per channel) using a single scene, 8 channel control module.

Our school wants to really improve the production quality of the shows, and a gym "up-fit" is the direction we're going.

The total budget which includes audio, lighting and staging is somewhere in the $250,000 US range. I'm not sure what the over all lighting only budget is.

One vendor has proposed a dead hung at the ceiling, cage protected system of the Chauvet Ovation E-190WWs (10) and Ovation E-910FC (10), cage protected Chauvet Rogue R2 Wash (8), Rogue R2 Spot (4) and a Rogue RH1 Hybrid moving head. Control would be provided via an avolites software system (DMX to USB) an a 23" touch screen PC. For a follow spot, they have suggested a JPC Lighting Moving Head Controller 2 (from ebay!). The system would be fed from a Lightronics SR516W wall controller (for easy presets), a Doug Fleenor 1211 DMX optical splitter. They would be installing all of the lighting wiring, cages, rigging, etc for the lighting and audio system.

The other vendor is proposing a system that can be lifted on mechanical booms, using ETC ColorSource fixtures(6) and ETC ColorSource PARs(12), and either an ETC Element console or one of the new ColorSource AV consoles. They are using CT and ETC products to connect and supply everything.

Both companies are offering fairly comprehensive plans for the lighting products. The second quote is under revision for a dead hung and cage protected set up, and to add some moving lights.

Since this is a gym that still has to function as a gym, and the school has basically nothing, we want something that will give us flexibility to perform plays, do concerts, and possibly add some stuff to the basketball games (the moving lights).

You know, I should have started here!

 

[JD]

Two notes:
1) There is a world of difference between Chauvet and ETC. Although Chauvet products have come a long way, ETC is pretty much the standard of the industry. This is especially true if problems arise at a later date.
2) Using a moving light as a follow spot sounds nice until you actually try to do it! (Think balancing eggs on top of each other.)

 

[Les]

2) Using a moving light as a follow spot sounds nice until you actually try to do it! (Think balancing eggs on top of each other.)

I was going to say the same thing. Especially with some cheap-azz no-name board from eBay. You will not be happy with that as a followspot setup. I'd sooner buy an Altman Luminator and call it good.

 

[JohnD]

Do the two proposals include running power to the fixtures, how is that being done, is there an easy way to switch off the power when not in use?

 

[lwinters630]

Can you run haze in the gym without tripping the fire alarm. Otherwise the movers won't be as effective as imagined by some.
I'd go for the full cage permanent install. This will eliminate set up time and storage/damage issues. Add extra crc for rental power for movers etc. Having a good rep plot will give you the most flexibility.

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

We have moved from cages a little to carefully mounting a batten in the truss joist space and using netting, like Incord, laced to joists. Cages are pricey but it does require more coordination. It also may solve clearance requirements for basketball. I agree permanent would save a lot of time over the years.

 

[JimOC_1]

"Since this is a gym that still has to function as a gym, and the school has basically nothing, we want something that will give us flexibility to perform plays, do concerts, and possibly add some stuff to the basketball games (the moving lights)."

Mover’s for basketball.
I could see how just washing the student section in a school color, while lighting up a spot on the gym floor (in a dark gym) for when the home team is introduced, would increase the number of times those lights are used by 3X.
I’d say do it without movers to save money, except that this could be all about building a tech staff of students and giving them great learning experiences. It also fit’s my mantra of having the tech staff be a service organization for the whole school. Again, increases the number of activities/jobs/opportunities for the kids. Nothing builds leaders like service.

 

[robartsd]

If you're designing the system to light using McCandless method, I'd want both the front lights to have the ability to provide a high quality white. All other directions could utilized decent quality color mixing lights (RGB) without as much concern for the quality of white. It would be nice to also have color mixing from the front light positions, so I could see double hanging those positions (or using very high quality RGBA/W mixers to provide high quality white). If you want a design that needs fewer high quality white sources, straight on face front light rather than McCandless dual front light is the ticket. Reasons to choose white LED instead of incandescent for high quality white lights: 1) lack of available power/dimming infrastructure, 2) high utilization (energy cost savings), 3) environmental/political energy savings considerations. Since this is likely to be dead hung in cages, I'd look to have movers that could provide all your needs for specials. I also agree with others her that a mover does not replace a follow spot.