Control/Dimming LED Par malfunction

[Aedyn Raven]

I am having some problems with some Altman Pars not listening to DMX signal, and I can't seem to figure out what is causing it. I am using Altman Cycs, Source Four Lustrs, and VL1100s as well, but none of them are showing the same issue. The pars will start strobing and changing colors seemingly at random. When I check the face panel the numbers in the ones place are cycling on their own very rapidly.
I have tried several fixes suggested by Altman and Mainstage, but none of them worked. This includes:

• Disabling RDM in the maintenance section of the Ion
• Patching the fixtures without sACN
• Terminating the DMX lines
• Running DMX directly from the board

I have also read the ESTA DMX512 standards and made sure that:

• The wattages of the fixtures do not add up to more than 1440 Watts
  
• There are not more than 32 fixtures on the DMX chain
• The power circuits are parked at 100%

Has anyone run into the same problem before? How did you fix it?

 

[Amiers]

Power circuits parked at 100%. You got them powered with straight clean power or a dimmer at 100%?

 

[Aedyn Raven]

Power circuits parked at 100%. You got them powered with straight clean power or a dimmer at 100%?

They are powered off of a non-dimmable three pin output.

 

[Amiers]

Well pull down one of the problem fixtures and plug it in away from the rig. If the display continues to act the way it was acting it sounds like you got hit with lightning and the Pars took the brunt of it.

All of them that sucks. Sounds like coincidence so I would say I’m only about 50% on it.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

They are powered off of a non-dimmable three pin output.

Maybe I should clarify. They are patched as a dimmer at the board, but the output is discrete.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

Well pull down one of the problem fixtures and plug it in away from the rig. If the display continues to act the way it was acting it sounds like you got hit with lightning and the Pars took the brunt of it.

All of them that sucks. Sounds like coincidence so I would say I’m only about 50% on it.

The lights act fine when using the manual presets on power from a normal 120v 60hz edison

 

[Amiers]

Well then your answered your question. Get them off the power they are on run clean power and throw them into the daisy chain.

 

[ptero]

They are powered off of a non-dimmable three pin output.

Where does the "non-dimmable three pin outlet get it's power?" Is it truly straight non-dim power? Or is it a dimmer parked at full providing the power? The second choice is bad news and could explain why they work when plugged into "power from a normal 120v 60hz edison". A parked dimmer does not provide decent clean power for the guts of LED fixtures.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

Where does the "non-dimmable three pin outlet get it's power?" Is it truly straight non-dim power? Or is it a dimmer parked at full providing the power? The second choice is bad news and could explain why they work when plugged into "power from a normal 120v 60hz edison". A parked dimmer does not provide decent clean power for the guts of LED fixtures.

I tested it using a conventional lamp, and a board input between 0 and 49 provides 0% output, and any input between 50 and 100 produces 100% output.

 

[RonHebbard]

I tested it using a conventional lamp, and a board input between 0 and 49 provides 0% output, and any input between 50 and 100 produces 100% output.

@Aedyn Raven Were you using a decent scope with a current sensing probe to measure the parked dimmer's output and look at the shape of the, optimistically, sine wave?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

@Aedyn Raven Were you using a decent scope with a current sensing probe to measure the parked dimmer's output and look at the shape of the, optimistically, sine wave?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

Are you talking about an oscilloscope?

 

[microstar]

I tested it using a conventional lamp, and a board input between 0 and 49 provides 0% output, and any input between 50 and 100 produces 100% output.

You're not listening to what is being said. A DIMMER "parked at 100%", or "set as a non-dim" or "set as a relay (your 0-49%= zero output/50-100%= 100% output) is NOT the same as "straight non-dim" power (as in plugging the fixture into a standard wall outlet).
The power supply in some fixtures might be OK with the dimmer scenario and some might not. Unless the instruction manual for a particular fixtures says it's OK to do, It's not a good idea and you are taking a risk by doing so, despite what some people may say.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

You're not listening to what is being said. A DIMMER "parked at 100%", or "set as a non-dim" or "set as a relay (your 0-49%= zero output/50-100%= 100% output) is NOT the same as "straight non-dim" power (as in plugging the fixture into a standard wall outlet).
The power supply in some fixtures might be OK with the dimmer scenario and some might not. Unless the instruction manual for a particular fixtures says it's OK to do, It's not a good idea and you are taking a risk by doing so, despite what some people may say.

So power provided from a non-dimmable three-pin output is NOT 120v, 15A, 60hz power?

 

[RonHebbard]

Are you talking about an oscilloscope?

YES, an oscilloscope. What other scope were you imagining? You'd hardly use a lobster-scope or a rectal-scope to observe the shape of a sine wave. The concern is your parked SCR, TRIAC or IGBT dimmer module won't be passing a perfect sine wave. Circuit breakers, mechanical, often referred to as "air gap", relays will pass undisturbed sine waves as will rheostats, and autotransformers. SCR's, TRIAC's and IGBT's normally clip the beginnings of sine waves where they rise from their zero crossing points in both directions. This does not pass healthy AC for your LED's. I'm totally fascinated by what other type of 'scope' you could imagine I'd be referring to in this context.
@JDziel Would you care to elaborate and elucidate?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

YES, an oscilloscope. What other scope were you imagining? You'd hardly use a lobster-scope or a rectal-scope to observe the shape of a sine wave. The concern is your parked SCR, TRIAC or IGBT dimmer module won't be passing a perfect sine wave. Circuit breakers, mechanical, often referred to as "air gap", relays will pass undisturbed sine waves as will rheostats, and autotransformers. SCR's, TRIAC's and IGBT's normally clip the beginnings of sine waves where they rise from their zero crossing points in both directions. This does not pass healthy AC for your LED's. I'm totally fascinated by what other type of 'scope' you could imagine I'd be referring to in this context.
@JDziel Would you care to elaborate and elucidate?
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

We don't have an oscilloscope at my venue, but I'll see if we can get our hands on one to run the test you recommended. And @RonHebbard, don't go bashing my rectal scope. It's quite useful!

 

[RonHebbard]

So power provided from a non-dimmable three-pin output is NOT 120v, 15A, 60hz power?

@Aedyn Raven It depends, sometimes yes and sometimes no. The real query is what else, what other electronic devices is it passing through on its way from the AC generator to your end device?
Reliably safe devices MAY include transformers, autotransformers, circuit breakers (both magnetic and thermal) and rheostats.
Electronic devices known to chop the initial rise of sine waves in both directions include (but are not limited to) SCR's, TRIAC's and IGBT's.
There are also saturable core dimmers but you're not very likely to come across many of these in the wild in this century.
I'm still fascinated by your other "scope" options considering the context.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

 

[Aedyn Raven]

@Aedyn Raven It depends, sometimes yes and sometimes no. The real query is what else, what other electronic devices is it passing through on its way from the AC generator to your end device?
Reliably safe devices MAY include transformers, autotransformers, circuit breakers (both magnetic and thermal) and rheostats.
Electronic devices known to chop the initial rise of sine waves in both directions include (but are not limited to) SCR's, TRIAC's and IGBT's.
There are also saturable core dimmers but you're not very likely to come across many of these in the wild in this century.
I'm still fascinated by your other "scope" options considering the context.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.

New info! Thanks! I'm an student and still learning so thanks for bearing with me. @microstar This info wasn't made clear to me before you mentioned it, so I guess my sin wasn't "not listening" but "not able to read minds"? I'll work on that once I master lights

 

[CrazyTechie]

So power provided from a non-dimmable three-pin output is NOT 120v, 15A, 60hz power?

Well, that depends on what's on the other end of the circuit. Does it run into your dimmer racks. Does it run into a breaker panel? If it runs into a dimmer rack and you have a dimmer module plugged in for that circuit, you're not getting a perfect sine wave on the power which can potentially screw with (and or let out the magic smoke in extreme cases) the electronics in the light. You answered your question when you said it works when plugged into a standard edison outlet (ie: no dimmer). So you just have to replicate that wherever this is plugged in.

Assuming it runs into a dimmer rack, unless you have a fancy module, it doesn't matter what you tell the rack or console to do with that dimmer (always on, relay mode, etc.). If it runs through a dimmer it will chop the sine wave. You won't notice it on an incandescent lamp because they don't care about imperfect sine waves on the power.

You need to have a true constant power or relay module in order to have a sine wave that isn't getting chopped.

 

[microstar]

So power provided from a non-dimmable three-pin output is NOT 120v, 15A, 60hz power?

So in summary, the problem is that conventional SCR, TRIAC, or IGBT dimmers alter the sine wave of the 120v, 15A 60Hz power and many LED fixture power supplies don't like the altered sine wave. The fact that you park the dimmer at full or in relay mode does not make the AC voltage bypass the SCR's or other types of power devices which operate on the principle of chopping the AC sine wave.
ETC has come out with ThruPower dimmer modules which do allow you to change them to true non-dims by bypassing the power devices, which unless yours is a very very new installation you don't have. Hope this helps.

 

[RonHebbard]

New info! Thanks! I'm an student and still learning so thanks for bearing with me. @microstar This info wasn't made clear to me before you mentioned it, so I guess my sin wasn't "not listening" but "not able to read minds"? I'll work on that once I master lights

@Aedyn Raven You will NEVER "master lights". Many, many of us have been trying, in my case since the 1950's, but I've yet to "master" them. I've managed to come close a few times but they keep leaping ahead and leave me playing catch up.
All the best with your career and your various scopes.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard.