LED Retrofit

Aaron S.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
Good afternoon everyone, I am having an issue that I'm hoping you all can help out with.

Talking work lights. I currently have 2 - 2.4k dimmers for my work lights. I have a total of 8 575w FLK/X lamps being used. 4 per circuit. When I get a set into the space anything upstage is dark. The wings are pretty much always dark because of the natural shape of the building. I have been looking for a good LED option so I can add more lights to the wings, and even add works onto electrics per the shows needs. I have looked at the Altman LED work light. It looks awesome, except they are $800 a pop. I saw the OSRAM LED work lights, and again, looking great, but still $350 a pop. I have tried in the past buying some $20-$30 LED work light from amazon or some place, but the issues I have run into with those: It's too green, can't have painters paint in that. Try again, it's too blue, can't have painters paint in that. Try again, not bright enough, can't have anyone do anything in that. Try again, got it right, but it lasted about 2 weeks and then started flashing, got replacement, flashing in about 2 weeks. Go back to the old ones. Does anyone know of an LED replacement for the FLK/X lamp? Or, what LED work lights do people use? Preferably something I could purchase a few of out of my own pocket so I don't need to go through the rigamarole of management for something I may need to return and all the hassle that comes with that.

Don't know where to throw this, I would prefer them to be dimmable. That isn't really a deal breaker right now, but it would be lovely if they could.
 

SteveB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
We use those $25 Amazon LED'S. They do not last. After about a year of 12/7 use, we are seeing a lot of clusters of LED's fail. Out of about 16 fixtures, about 6 are now junk.

OSRAM Kreios OTOH, are worth the expense. We have about 20 and they are super bright. Worth it.
 
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Aaron S.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
We use those $25 Amazon LED'S. They do not last. After about a year of 12/7 use, we are seeing a lot of clusters of LED's fail. Out of about 16 fixtures, about 6 are now junk.

OSRAM Kreios OTOH, are worth the expense. We have about 20 and they are super bright. Worth it.
Do you have a link to the amazon ones you purchased?
 

TimMc

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
I'd get the painters some big ol' scoop lights and your choice of 500w screw base lamps. Incandescent for the painters. Yes.

For everyone else? You decide what the trade offs are until you're able to pony up the $$ for the OSARAM or similar dedicated (and vetted) fixtures. If you're buying $40 fixtures and replacing them every 2 years that's not a bad deal if the color spectrum and output were acceptable. If they kind of suck to start with the perceptioin of economy fades with the fixture... As @SteveB says, buy 50 or 60 if you find one that meets your needs and consider them disposable.
 

Aaron S.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
I'd get the painters some big ol' scoop lights and your choice of 500w screw base lamps. Incandescent for the painters. Yes.

For everyone else? You decide what the trade offs are until you're able to pony up the $$ for the OSARAM or similar dedicated (and vetted) fixtures. If you're buying $40 fixtures and replacing them every 2 years that's not a bad deal if the color spectrum and output were acceptable. If they kind of suck to start with the perceptioin of economy fades with the fixture... As @SteveB says, buy 50 or 60 if you find one that meets your needs and consider them disposable.
That’s what I’m looking for. The $40 light that has good color spectrum and output. It isn’t a permanent solution by any means. And I don’t mind the company spending the money. But it’s a big ask and especially with the financial state of most companies right now it might be a couple years before I get the approval. But, if I can pick up a few out of my own pocket it will make my life easier.
 

RonHebbard

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2004
Location
Waterdown, ON, CA
I'd get the painters some big ol' scoop lights and your choice of 500w screw base lamps. Incandescent for the painters. Yes.

For everyone else? You decide what the trade offs are until you're able to pony up the $$ for the OSARAM or similar dedicated (and vetted) fixtures. If you're buying $40 fixtures and replacing them every 2 years that's not a bad deal if the color spectrum and output were acceptable. If they kind of suck to start with the perception of economy fades with the fixture... As @SteveB says, buy 50 or 60 if you find one that meets your needs and consider them disposable.
@TimMc In 1991 or 2 I did Your: "I'd get the painters some big ol' scoop lights and your choice of 500w screw base lamps. Incandescent for the painters. Yes." Method.

The painters insisted on wheeled telescoping stands so they could roll them around their painting surface.
Their painting shop was the 100' width of the building by approximately 200' of it's 600' length.
Our owners opted for the most 'value engineered' option they could afford and purchased 4 of the old (Century Strand or possibly Altman) three-legged, cast iron bases with ~5' vertical ~1" ID pipes, extendable to ~9'; topped them with your "big ol' scoop lights", then added 3. non-locking, swivel casters.

It didn't take the painters long to damage ( Rattle / Vibrate the excrement out of ) the filaments.

The building was originally built as an aluminum extruding manufacturer.
The furnace and extrusion equipment were long gone when the extruders moved to a MUCH larger facility.

For ~ 5 years, the leaseholder's / commercial realtors had MANY tenants lease portions of the building.
Our owners initially leased 2/3rds with the remaining tenant retaining 1/3.
Our owners negotiated with (Bitched at) the leaseholder for several months before we 'bit the bullet' and
( By laying a series of 3/4" x 4' x 8' sheets across the top of one of the cranes, then adding a 6' ladder ) replaced all of the overhead fixtures in our 2/3rds with brand new / clean / Metal Halide fixtures.

The difference was . . . dramatic.
The tenant in the remaining 1/3 asked (Query'd / whined / weedle'd) the leaseholder / Industrial realtor to replace the fixtures in their 1/3. He / they, stalled, stone-walled, refused. The remaining tenant moved out.

I honestly can't recall where things progressed from there. When we removed the original fixtures the leaseholder / industrial realtor insisted we save them. Purportedly "their electrician" would have serviced them ALL in place with zero need to lower them to ground level, let alone replace the entire fixtures.
The last I can recall for certain was: We placed ALL of the old fixtures in two neat rows against one wall in the (now vacant) 1/3 of the building and left them there for the Industrial Realtor to deal with when he toured prospective new tenants.

I vaguely remember THEIR electrician giving them a cursory glance, complaining bitterly about how DIRTY they were, ( Remember they'd spent their lives 30+ feet in the air over a furnace heating aluminum to extrusion temperature before forcing it through two or three rows of extruders ) then binning them before 'discussing' their replacement with his employer.
Toodleoo!
Ron Hebbard
 

FMEng

Well-Known Member
Fight Leukemia
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Location
Tacoma, WA
It doesn't seem likely that a cheap, bright, LED work light would have good color rendition. Good CRI is expensive to produce, and the vast majority of worklight users prefer low cost over anything else.
 

gafftaper

Senior Team
Senior Team
Fight Leukemia
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Jan 2, 2006
Location
Seattle, WA
I've been using "Hyperikon" 100 watt Led flood lights since March 2019. So a little over a year 🤔😕. They are very bright, lean towards blue but not too bad. They sold them on Amazon in packs of two for $90. They are currently out of stock. I'm guessing it's a different product now. They are fantastic for rehearsal, but I don't think a scenic painter would be happy with them.

Unfortunately you just have to pay full price for good CRI.
 

JonCarter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Location
Meridian, Idaho, US
That’s what I’m looking for. The $40 light that has good color spectrum and output.
Try a 3200 K incandescent. Works every time. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I know, I know, we all want to use LEDs because they're the latest and greatest (today) and save power. But I'll bet you that your stage's lighting (all of it, rehearsal AND performance) uses a far smaller percentage of the facilitiy's power than your parking lot lights, not to mention the building's air conditioning system. Give your painters something that's CHEAP and WORKS and save your efforts and budget for the big stuff.
 
Last edited:

Aaron S.

Active Member
Joined
Mar 8, 2017
Location
Los Angeles
Try a 3200 K incandescent. Works every time. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I know, I know, we all want to use LEDs because they're the latest and greatest (today) and save power. But I'll bet you that your stage's lighting (all of it, rehearsal AND performance) uses a far smaller percentage of the facilitiy's power than your parking lot lights, not to mention the building's air conditioning system. Give your painters something that's CHEAP and WORKS and save your efforts and budget for the big stuff.
I'm not looking for LED to save on the power bill, I'm looking for LED so I can have ample light in my entire venue without tripping breakers.
 

SteveB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
Try a 3200 K incandescent. Works every time. (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

I know, I know, we all want to use LEDs because they're the latest and greatest (today) and save power. But I'll bet you that your stage's lighting (all of it, rehearsal AND performance) uses a far smaller percentage of the facilitiy's power than your parking lot lights, not to mention the building's air conditioning system. Give your painters something that's CHEAP and WORKS and save your efforts and budget for the big stuff.
Seattle Rep did a building survey maybe 10 years ago. They used tracking software on their cues for assorted shows in the LightPalletes as well as info on the plot (instruments/wattages, etc...to determine what the loading was at assorted times during a show. As best as they could determine and this was before any LED gear, the theatrical systems use 2% of the building load year round.

It was an educational experience, I believe most thought it would be much higher, I think this was printed the PLASA magazine.
 

RickR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Location
Spokane, WA the great "Inland Northwest"
About the same time a Texas college did a similar study, with similar conclusions. Time is the forgotten factor. 12 hours a day vs 3 hours 3 days a week is almost 10:1

Commercial strips or 'low bay' fixtures are the answer to 'lots of light for low cost'. CCT choices and 80-90 CRI are normal. Gone are the greenish fluorescents and metal halides. A few hundred can get you 20,000 lumens of line voltage dimmable, decent color, large ugly fixtures that will flood all over the place.

A little more familiar would be the Altman worklight. 10,000 lumens, not dimmable, 90CRI and probably under $1000. So 2 Krieos in one.
 

JonCarter

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 18, 2011
Location
Meridian, Idaho, US
". . . the theatrical systems use 2% of the building load year round." That was my offhand guess without any fancy computer monitoring & evaluation. (I know, that'll P.O. all he LED hardware manufacturers!)
 

TimMc

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2017
". . . the theatrical systems use 2% of the building load year round." That was my offhand guess without any fancy computer monitoring & evaluation. (I know, that'll P.O. all he LED hardware manufacturers!)
I don't recall any LED lighting manufacturer saying their products will reduce total building load by double digets, Jon. I *do* recall claims of reducing lighting power consumption by those numbers, though.

The other question is, how much is the interior heating reduced by LEDs and is that factored into the total building load?
 

SteveB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Location
Brooklyn, NY
I don't recall any LED lighting manufacturer saying their products will reduce total building load by double digets, Jon. I *do* recall claims of reducing lighting power consumption by those numbers, though.

The other question is, how much is the interior heating reduced by LEDs and is that factored into the total building load?
I was told recently that my college intends to upgrade the entire campus (12 buildings) of 40,000 lighting fixtures from mostly really vintage flourescent to LED in a major upgrade plan, including a just opened building that is Green certified and that is all flourescents. I heard they expect to save enough on the electric bill for the project to have paid for itself in 8 mos.

I'm skeptical.

I did suggest they replace the house lighting system in our 65 year old road House, that currently is 680 incandescent A lamps. Probably 15-20% of the circuits are defunct due to old wiring.
 

RickR

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 18, 2009
Location
Spokane, WA the great "Inland Northwest"
The other question is, how much is the interior heating reduced by LEDs and is that factored into the total building load?
A true retrofit pro will take that into account.
I vividly recall being lectured by an HVAC designer that I hadn't notified her of plans to convert a project from incandescent to fluorescent. The need for added heat and reduced cooling would throw off her entire system.
 

tjrobb

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 14, 2009
Location
Cedar Rapids, Iowa
Heating should already assume zero fixture load, dead of night situation. Unless you're parking power transformers (or nightlights), plan like everyone went home. [Also useful in case, say, a pandemic shutters your building over winter. Hypothetically. ]
 

carmellights

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Location
CO
Good afternoon everyone, I am having an issue that I'm hoping you all can help out with.

Talking work lights. I currently have 2 - 2.4k dimmers for my work lights. I have a total of 8 575w FLK/X lamps being used. 4 per circuit. When I get a set into the space anything upstage is dark. The wings are pretty much always dark because of the natural shape of the building. I have been looking for a good LED option so I can add more lights to the wings, and even add works onto electrics per the shows needs. I have looked at the Altman LED work light. It looks awesome, except they are $800 a pop. I saw the OSRAM LED work lights, and again, looking great, but still $350 a pop. I have tried in the past buying some $20-$30 LED work light from amazon or some place, but the issues I have run into with those: It's too green, can't have painters paint in that. Try again, it's too blue, can't have painters paint in that. Try again, not bright enough, can't have anyone do anything in that. Try again, got it right, but it lasted about 2 weeks and then started flashing, got replacement, flashing in about 2 weeks. Go back to the old ones. Does anyone know of an LED replacement for the FLK/X lamp? Or, what LED work lights do people use? Preferably something I could purchase a few of out of my own pocket so I don't need to go through the rigamarole of management for something I may need to return and all the hassle that comes with that.

Don't know where to throw this, I would prefer them to be dimmable. That isn't really a deal breaker right now, but it would be lovely if they could.
The 300$ Oscan is the best bet - wonderful CRI , very bright and good spread - we have used 4 of these across two pipes to light a 40’ x 40’ stage nicely .
 

carmellights

Member
Joined
Mar 16, 2012
Location
CO
Seattle Rep did a building survey maybe 10 years ago. They used tracking software on their cues for assorted shows in the LightPalletes as well as info on the plot (instruments/wattages, etc...to determine what the loading was at assorted times during a show. As best as they could determine and this was before any LED gear, the theatrical systems use 2% of the building load year round.

It was an educational experience, I believe most thought it would be much higher, I think this was printed the PLASA magazine.
One of the best studies ever done !!!
 

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