LED Source Four

Would you all mind answering a question about a project I'm working on?

A small regional theater is being built from the ground up (no existing structure).
30' x 40' x 18' blackbox, modifiable stage and seating setup.
The builder (and part investor) has recommended we go with an all LED array, given the reduced cost in initial wiring, AC load (we're in the south), monthly power cost, cable, dimmers.
Basically, the infrastructure required for LED is so much less initially and month-to-month that it cancels out the 10x markup for LEDs. It sounds like the quality of light is comparable to incandescents.

Is there any reason you wouldn't go LED in my position?
What would you substitute for Fresnels on the back and sides? Fire and Ice?

Thanks. Great thread so far. Been extremely informative.
 
HEJL said:
Would you all mind answering a question about a project I'm working on?

A small regional theater is being built from the ground up (no existing structure).
30' x 40' x 18' blackbox, modifiable stage and seating setup.
The builder (and part investor) has recommended we go with an all LED array, given the reduced cost in initial wiring, AC load (we're in the south), monthly power cost, cable, dimmers.
Basically, the infrastructure required for LED is so much less initially and month-to-month that it cancels out the 10x markup for LEDs. It sounds like the quality of light is comparable to incandescents.

Is there any reason you wouldn't go LED in my position?
What would you substitute for Fresnels on the back and sides? Fire and Ice?

Thanks. Great thread so far. Been extremely informative.
Click to expand...

I'm sure a lot of people will disagree with me, but I personally think incandescent light looks better on people than LEDs, even those that are color corrected to match incandescent fixtures.
 
Make sure you're happy with what's going to be installed. I love the idea of building a 100% LED building if you can also get the non-stage lights in too. There was a show done exclusively with various ETC LED products but I can't find the details right now.
 
Time to bring this one back from the dead....

I had been talking to the guys at ETC since these things came out to get a demo lined up. Well, I finally had the right date, Gov. Cuomo's 2013 budget address.

We got 3 units, 2 19 degrees and 1 26 degree. The goal was to do a 2 point frontlight and a toplight with the units. Because this event was lit for TV, we decided to go with the tungsten units. We got the fixtures on the Friday before the event. From box to patch took about an hour... and that included the time to get them hauled into our catwalks. The units are a bit heavier than a standard S4, but nothing unbearable. The "lightbulb" button was rather nice; as soon as it was hung Mrs. Footer was able to turn it on, focus it, and walk away without touching the console. This meant that she could start focusing the first unit while her crew was still getting DMX run; as a result, the whole process went faster.

Now, for the guts of the whole thing. We really liked the fixture. The fact that it has zero hotspot is pretty amazing. Dimming curve is perfect (we don't have a single sensor dimmer in house so we could not compare that). Color temperature is perfect. We did not get a chance to drop a gobo or a gel in it so no comment on that. We ended up hitting him from the front 45’s with the LED fixtures and from the side from two of our 1980’s era Strand/Century 1ks. The LED fixtures matched our 1k units perfectly. We had the final LED hung at a top fixture, but it was causing teleprompter glare so that got cut. One of the things that these guys particularly liked is that there is zero heat when you are in them. When working with corporate clients this can be a god send because you can get the light you need on the VIP without sweating them out.

Full video of the event: 2013 - 14 Executive Budget | Governor Andrew M. Cuomo

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http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/23/nyregion/cuomo-to-focus-on-limiting-spending-in-new-budget.html


I really can not say more about how great the color was out of this thing. Until I told the camera guys that were doing the pool feed, they did not have any idea we were using an LED fixture. There was no camera flicker or anything like that. The temperature matched the Strand Century 2212 units we used for sidelight great.

For our purposes, this fixture is perfect. Odds are where we currently have 3 systems of light, we would go with one system of these units and a system of the Lustr units. Yes, they do need to get brighter to compete with a 750w S4... but it will get there. It is to the point right now that we have given up the idea of replacing our dimming system all together and want to go totally LED.

....Though our building is still getting its funding in the budget the Governor release.... he did not announce any "Egg gets a big pot of money for LED's" plan... maybe next year!
 
Having played with a pair of S4 LEDs and a pair of D40s as possible partial replacements for a S4/PAR 64 rig at a pair of venues across the river from Footer, the conclusion the groups there came to was that the S4 LED just wasn't bright enough to integrate with a S4 575W rig unless the LED units were being used for saturated colors. With R33/R60, the 575W S4 was noticably brighter than the 7 color units. That being said, the tin cans will be replaced, most likely with D60s later this spring. The demo'd D40 units held their own with the 1K MFL lamps on the saturated colors (R74, R26, R59, R382, R22, R339).
 
BobHealey said:
Having played with a pair of S4 LEDs and a pair of D40s as possible partial replacements for a S4/PAR 64 rig at a pair of venues across the river from Footer, the conclusion the groups there came to was that the S4 LED just wasn't bright enough to integrate with a S4 575W rig unless the LED units were being used for saturated colors. With R33/R60, the 575W S4 was noticably brighter than the 7 color units. That being said, the tin cans will be replaced, most likely with D60s later this spring. The demo'd D40 units held their own with the 1K MFL lamps on the saturated colors (R74, R26, R59, R382, R22, R339).
Click to expand...

That sounds about right for looking at the Lustr+ versus a 575W Tungsten. There are also the LED Tungsten fixtures that you could put gels in front of. Did you get a chance to try those out and compare them with your 575W's?

One of the first things ETC will tell you is that LED's are not a replacement for incandescent sources. They'll expand your capabilities greatly for colors, but the closer you get to producing white or unsaturated colors, the more you should be pairing up an incandescent fixture per LED fixture. The incandescent will be your O/W, pink, amber, pale blue, what-have-you, but the LED fixture is what you would lean on for the saturated colors.

That's assuming you go in the direction of the the Lustr+ option. You can also always go with the Tungsten or Daylight flavors and continue to use gels. I do not have first hand experience with what the brightness difference is between a Source Four LED Tungsten and a Source Four, but I suspect the gap between them is less than if you were comparing against a Source Four LED Lustr+.
 
MNicolai said:
That sounds about right for looking at the Lustr+ versus a 575W Tungsten. There are also the LED Tungsten fixtures that you could put gels in front of. Did you get a chance to try those out and compare them with your 575W's?

One of the first things ETC will tell you is that LED's are not a replacement for incandescent sources. They'll expand your capabilities greatly for colors, but the closer you get to producing white or unsaturated colors, the more you should be pairing up an incandescent fixture per LED fixture. The incandescent will be your O/W, pink, amber, pale blue, what-have-you, but the LED fixture is what you would lean on for the saturated colors.

That's assuming you go in the direction of the the Lustr+ option. You can also always go with the Tungsten or Daylight flavors and continue to use gels. I do not have first hand experience with what the brightness difference is between a Source Four LED Tungsten and a Source Four, but I suspect the gap between them is less than if you were comparing against a Source Four LED Lustr+.
Click to expand...

The group in question is a student group at my day job (which is completely unrelated to all things theatrical) that I've turned into an unofficial tech advisor for. The university in question does not have any formal theater programs, but probably has some of the better non-professional facilities in the region. They have enough funds to replace their base setup for events in the student union (4x 750W S4 19, 12xMFL PAR 64) with LED, but don't have enough to go all LED. So one of the criteria was how well it was possible to integrate into the rest of their rig (+12 750W S4s, +48 1KW MFL, +32 500W MFL, 8 Roboscans of varying vintages, most old enough to vote, some almost old enough to drink) and if they still provided useful light. If anyone really wants to know more details, they can send me a PM and I'll detail the whats and wheres I volunteer with.
 
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I just did a theatre conference with a rig of 12 S4 LED and came to pretty much the same conclusions as those posted above. The colors are amazing, but they're not a substitute for an incandescent Source 4. I was fortunate enough to be able to hang two Selecon PL4's right next to the S4 LED's. While I'm a huge ETC fan, I have to say that the PL4's were much brighter and the colors were as good. The PL4 is a monster, however and weighs about twice as much. It's also front-heavy and harder to focus, but MAN does it pack a punch!
 
ProgrammerInTraining said:
used like 20 of them at the golden globes, not to big of a fan of them due to the edge not being as sharp when shuttering, got yelled at by the gaffer when he wanted a sharp edge and I tried explaining thats as sharp as it gets.
Click to expand...

Did you pull the frost that was in the gate?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD
 
Tex said:
I just did a theatre conference with a rig of 12 S4 LED and came to pretty much the same conclusions as those posted above. The colors are amazing, but they're not a substitute for an incandescent Source 4. I was fortunate enough to be able to hang two Selecon PL4's right next to the S4 LED's. While I'm a huge ETC fan, I have to say that the PL4's were much brighter and the colors were as good. The PL4 is a monster, however and weighs about twice as much. It's also front-heavy and harder to focus, but MAN does it pack a punch!
Click to expand...

The PL4 is about 35% brighter as well as twice the weight, almost twice the price and 4 times the current draw.

David
 
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