LED Source Four

[bishopthomas]

I was thinking $1000. I was prepared to pay four digits for a white only light (exactly a Source Four but an LED), but that's absurd. It's just not going to happen. What kind of total wattage are we looking at? There's really not much information out there for a product released in a few short weeks.

 

[MNicolai]

For $2500, you don't need to buy gel, lamps, as much electricity, as many 12AWG power cables, expensive dimmer racks and wiring in the walls, dimmer modules, as huge of transformers. Not to mention you don't have to hang as many lights because you don't need three fixtures of different colors of gel covering the same spot in different colors for different times during the show.

As has long been the case with LED's retrofits will see little savings because they have already paid for most of the stuff that LEDs mean they no longer need.

New installs won't yet throw caution to the wind and drastically reduce the number of conventional circuits/fixtures they plan for, but as they do in years to come it'll make oodles more sense to build a hybrid lighting system -- for both practical and for financial reasons.

 

[ElectroCarp]

They're officially launching the product at USITT next week in Long Beach. I'm sure they'll be shooting it out against traditional Source Fours (dang, we're gonna hafta start calling them "old style" Source Fours now, aren't we... ), and I'll be sure to take a bunch of photos and report back while I'm there. That said, I know the Tungsten version was designed to hang in a rig right next to Source Fours, so I'd expect that the light output is almost identical - and from what I've heard from others who have already seen the product, it's almost impossible to distinguish the two.

Most of those speculations and comparison are explained at the beginning of this thread. They had one out at SETC this year and it was ahhmazing, though understandably it was not hung next to a traditional S4. But if they do have a side by side comparison there you should defiantly post pictures up here.

 

[gafftaper]

A $2500 list means a street price of around $2000-$2500, depending on the quantity you buy, your dealer's buying power, and your relationship to the dealer.

 

[bishopthomas]

For $2500, you don't need to buy gel, lamps, as much electricity, as many 12AWG power cables, expensive dimmer racks and wiring in the walls, dimmer modules, as huge of transformers. Not to mention you don't have to hang as many lights because you don't need three fixtures of different colors of gel covering the same spot in different colors for different times during the show.

Yes, the standard argument for LED still exists. However, coverage is coverage, and if you need 24 fixtures to wash a stage then that's still 25 fixtures, whether they're LED or conventional. Trust me, I learned that common sense the hard way. Plus, as you know, the argument for no need to buy and install all the conventional accessories is only valid if this infrastructure does not already exist. Dimmer racks really aren't that expensive, at least not compared channel-channel next to the S4 LED. Keep in mind that we're talking TEN TIMES the price, not just 2-300%.

 

[bishopthomas]

A $2500 list means a street price of around $2000-$2500, depending on the quantity you buy, your dealer's buying power, and your relationship to the dealer.

Still not cheap. Still not attainable by most.

Please, someone tell me when they will be buying a stock of these lights... I doubt anyone here will be doing a refit any time soon.

 

[rochem]

Still not cheap. Still not attainable by most.

Please, someone tell me when they will be buying a stock of these lights... I doubt anyone here will be doing a refit any time soon.

In the marketing materials they've released, they seem to be pushing pretty hard the idea that the LED Source Four can blend with existing rigs. In practice, I very much doubt that you can replace your DRoC frontlight area with a S4 LED and have nobody notice, but I'm sure you could hang a single S4 LED as a frontlight special and save on multiple instruments/a scroller/whatever. Also, if you compare that $2000-2500ish street price to the cost of a new Seachanger, the LED S4 is not all that much more. Both products are basically just color-changing source fours, but one has far less power consumption and far better color rendering. For a list of $1750 you can get a new tungsten seachanger without the Source Four attached, so you're looking at a minimum of $2000 for that anyway. I suspect that they're going to try to market this as an alternative to the Seachanger at first, because that seems to be pretty close to the price point.

 

[len]

I think there is a market for this, but more so in the smaller concert, event and other places. Bringing in 4 - 10 ellipsoidals into a ballroom or a small concert stage is easy with shoebox dimmers, or straight into the wall. But 10 or 50 of them gets difficult. Dimmer racks, cabling, etc., is where prices skyrocket, not just because a dimmer rack is costly (it really isn't) but because the cost of temporarily installing one is high. Tie ins to the hotel service, labor to do so, feeder, etc. No thanks.

Also, ETC knows they won't sell 50,000 of these the first month. They know the incandescent S4 is so entrenched (and its competitors) that the LED will take several years before it's considered standard, if ever. I think they're offering this because it's LED and the demand for anything with that engine is in demand. People (including myself) were very high on plasma sources a couple years ago, but that hasn't taken off yet, if it ever will. ETC knows they either need to drive the bandwagon or watch it leave without them.

 

[zmb]

I'll be happy to win a Lustr one if there's going to be another contest.

 

[BobHealey]

I wonder if it would be possible to drop gel (say R02 or R60) in front of the 3200K unit to blend it in with an existing rig, or if it would look completely wrong next to a HPL based unit with the same gel.

 

[MNicolai]

I wonder if it would be possible to drop gel (say R02 or R60) in front of the 3200K unit to blend it in with an existing rig, or if it would look completely wrong next to a HPL based unit with the same gel.

Practically speaking, why would you want to have the same gel in both? Would you interchange and mix 575w and 750w units to build your front warm wash?

We've got a rig of 40 Selador fixtures in the air, and the only reason we pit tungsten fixtures next to them is to compliment them. The only reason we have to ever hang fresnels again is 1) it's tradition and 2) if we need a bright no-color wash. Lumen for lumen, the Seladors have just about killed our reasons to own 2/3 of our fresnels, except we're a roadhouse so we need to have them when it's what touring groups ask for.

We would never try to build a lighting group out of different fixtures -- trying to mix Pearls with the appropriate gels and fresnels with those same gels.

 

[Footer]

Still not cheap. Still not attainable by most.

Please, someone tell me when they will be buying a stock of these lights... I doubt anyone here will be doing a refit any time soon.

6 years ago the state did a top to bottom analysis of our building to bring it up to industry spec. About 3 million dollars of the 17 million dollar plan involved stage lighting. 2 million of that was simply dimming and the associated A/C infrastructure. If we use our current circuiting terminated to breaker panels, put in a DMX distribution network, get a new console, and replace 2/3's of our fixtures with these fixtures we could do the whole project for 1.5 million. We would not have to run a ton of new conduit, pull a ton of new power, and put in a ton more A/C. We would also not need as many fixtures which would lessen the strain on our grid (a real factor when your fly house is in a giant egg). It would decrease labor and production costs. Labor for swapping gel daily adds up quickly as well. Finally, fixture maintenance costs also have to be considered. Not having to stock lamps plus not having to pay someone to go and change that lamp is another consideration. Right now our dimming is a mixed bag 2.4k, 6k, and 12k dimmers. We have a total of 108 dimmers and over 400 fixtures in our rep plot. It would be nice to be able to control less then 5 fixtures at a time with one channel.

There is a large push inside the state to go green. They are putting in LED's just about everywhere they can. They are trying to shove LED houselights down our throats. National grid is giving the state a huge discount on any LED lighting. Obviously they have not done the retrofit that they wrote up plans for 6 years ago. However, adding both "cheaper" and "green" to the mix might make this a possibility.

 

[BobHealey]

Practically speaking, why would you want to have the same gel in both? Would you interchange and mix 575w and 750w units to build your front warm wash?

We've got a rig of 40 Selador fixtures in the air, and the only reason we pit tungsten fixtures next to them is to compliment them. The only reason we have to ever hang fresnels again is 1) it's tradition and 2) if we need a bright no-color wash. Lumen for lumen, the Seladors have just about killed our reasons to own 2/3 of our fresnels, except we're a roadhouse so we need to have them when it's what touring groups ask for.

We would never try to build a lighting group out of different fixtures -- trying to mix Pearls with the appropriate gels and fresnels with those same gels.

I'll never have the funds to do a wholesale replacement of the current collection with LED, but I could possibly sneak in 1-3 units/year which would replace say the downstage warm wash, and the upstage warm would still be R02 or R33 or whatever's appropriate on a GLA, GLH or EHD lamp (TBD, based on reaching a consensus on what is an acceptable maximum brightness, GLE/EHG/FEL/BTN/BVT are too bright).

 

[MNicolai]

I'll never have the funds to do a wholesale replacement of the current collection with LED, but I could possibly sneak in 1-3 units/year which would replace say the downstage warm wash, and the upstage warm would still be R02 or R33 or whatever's appropriate on a GLA, GLH or EHD lamp (TBD, based on reaching a consensus on what is an acceptable maximum brightness, GLE/EHG/FEL/BTN/BVT are too bright).

These fixtures probably aren't for you then. ETC's pretty good at staying consistent, but even they have had pretty major changes in their LED fixtures over the last year. Between their dissolution of the Vivid's to create the Vivid-R's, and the change from strip lights to more wash-like fixtures -- the markets changing quickly and in a way that no one company can have much control over. You may be buying 3 Source Four LED's next year and then a couple years later 3 Source Four LED-Super-Plus fixtures.

Don't try to make a 10-year plan for implementing any LED fixtures from any manufacturer because in 5 years there will likely be drastic differences in what's available on the market (and potentially what will no longer be available).

 

[derekleffew]

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[jstroming]

I have already contacted my ETC dealer (4-wall) in order to purchase some units for comparison. He's telling me the same everyone else has heard, availability in 2-3 months.

This could have huge savings for me. My company is starting 2 new dance tours in the fall, and if I can send this show out with an entire LED rig instead of conventionals, I will be able to get by with a 100A service instead of our current 200A power service. Convention Center/Hotel power is EXPENSIVE (usually $1000/day for a 100A, $1500 for a 200A service in most convention centers & large hotels). Our events are 4 day shows, usually about 25 per tour. That's an average savings of $50,000 PER TOUR. We have 2 tours already out (30 cities each tour), and within one year the amount I would save in power costs would cover the cost of upgrading my conventionals to Source 4 LEDs.

Plus the fact that I dont need dimmers, wont need as much cabling....seems like a win/win situation for us.

 

[shiben]

I have already contacted my ETC dealer (4-wall) in order to purchase some units for comparison. He's telling me the same everyone else has heard, availability in 2-3 months.

This could have huge savings for me. My company is starting 2 new dance tours in the fall, and if I can send this show out with an entire LED rig instead of conventionals, I will be able to get by with a 100A service instead of our current 200A power service. Convention Center/Hotel power is EXPENSIVE (usually $1000/day for a 100A, $1500 for a 200A service in most convention centers & large hotels). Our events are 4 day shows, usually about 25 per tour. That's an average savings of $50,000 PER TOUR. We have 2 tours already out (30 cities each tour), and within one year the amount I would save in power costs would cover the cost of upgrading my conventionals to Source 4 LEDs.

Plus the fact that I dont need dimmers, wont need as much cabling....seems like a win/win situation for us.

Exactly. This is what I think the LED S4 will be most useful for in the near term, shows where power is at a premium and the savings on it amount to enough to purchase the units. All the small dance shows I work on have the most atrocious cabling situation known to man... Making that better would be huge in my opinion.

 

[bdkdesigns]

On ETC's facebook page, they posted a pic of it at Prolight+Sound. Looks like the 3 versions are side by side with a traditional mixed in. Can't wait for USITT!

 

[derekleffew]

Any word on Lumens OTF?

No; and if I were ETC, I'd never publish such figures, ever. Comparisons of LED sources, to traditional sources as well as to each other, is so problematic as to make virtually all numbers meaningless. ...

Well, so much for ETC listening to me! On this page Lighting solutions for Theatre, Film & Television Studios and Architectural spaces : ETC are comparative output statistics (aka lies). Noticeably absent is the Prism Projection RevEAL Profile, which purportedly outputs 16,000 lumens.


BTW, I had assumed that "OTF" meant Out The Front. Is that correct? Or is this another TLA that I'm mistaken about?

 

[jgels]

My school is gearing up for a capital campaign and it seems likely that the auditorium will be a major focus for it. Since it would basically need to be an entirely new rig (this is a simultaneously gorgeous and useless auditorium) I have made my wish list to be 40 of Source 4 Lustr. Maybe they will compromise and give me 30 I also appreciate that I would be able to bring these units back and forth between my auditorium and black box (which is permanently wired to be 16 channels on four electrics 12 of which are permanent twofers)