LED Stage Lighting

[jkluch95]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and I needed an opinion. I'm currently TD and Crew Cheif at my High School (a little background on my school, our Tech Crew; Sound and Lighting, is completely separate from every other aspect of the theater, we operate on our own and get hand-picked by our Adviser every year).

Our Auditorium is getting re-done this summer and the administration wants to go completely LED with our lighting system, a thought to which myself and my Advisers so a great big NO (our town's Middle School converted to LED stage lighting and it is thoroughly TERRIBLE).

Can you guys suggest how to go about LED lighting and if it is worth it to completely convert?

Thanks!
Jon

 

[derekleffew]

I don't mean to burst any bubbles (much), but whether it's worth it or not is a moot issue. If the project is to happen this summer, it's likely already well underway. Specifications have been written, drawings have been done, and bids are being let, or have been completed.

Accept the fact that as a student, and even your advisor as a teacher, are so low on the food chain that your opinions and experiences are virtually meaningless to the school board and their contractors. It's very possible that those making the decisions don't know anything about what they're deciding--that's why they're called administrators, or in some circles, politicians.

To directly answer your question, yes, I believe it's currently totally possible to have a 100% LED theatre (except that I've never seen a decent LED followspot, yet!). But it's still not currently cost-effective, even when factoring in savings of energy usage, lamps, gels, labor, and so on.

 

[BillESC]

Welcome to the Booth.

A couple questions before suggestions.

What is the infrastructure in your current theatre? Dimmers, fixtures, electrical distribution?

Has a proposed budget been established?

Have you contracted a theatre consultant?

 

[np18358]

I was in the same pool as you a few months ago, when I was told by one of the Lighting Design Teachers, that our smallest of four spaces was going to be refitted with all LEDs, and I said NO!!! This will be terrible I thought. Then when I started getting specs on the Theatre, I was really impressed! I am not familiar with your space, however, since the theatre that we are getting is small (98 seats) and is a black box, it can live with the less wattage from the LEDs. We are getting 18 Source Four LEDs, and 24 Selador Desires, along with 4 LED movers, that they haven't decided on (they may be Elation). I know it will be a while till we get the remodel, but I can't wait. Also, to look at the educational side, if anybody at your school wants to get into professional lighting, LEDs are the future, and it will be a great opportunity for them to learn programming with them. By the way Derek, we aren't getting any followspots, but I agree, there are not any good LED ones, the only one I have seen so far is a Chavuet for DJs, and Small Events. But hopefully, that will change!

 

[gafftaper]

It's a change that sounds wonderful on paper and people making the decision think only about how much money they will save on electricity with know knowledge of how much they are going to screw up your theater if you get the wrong products. They look at the other school in your district and don't care what the show looks like, all they see is energy saved and say it was a good purchase.

Unfortunately, as Derek said it may be too late. These things go to bid REALLY early so start complaining now. Buying LED's in the world of minimum bid wins the contract is FRIGHTENING! There is a LOT of junk out there that will make your theater look terrible. In my opinion, the only reliable thing that everyone can trust to look good is the ETC Selador line. There are other good products out there from Apollo, Elation, Altman, and some smaller brands as well but they take careful shopping with an expert as your guide. You don't have that luxury and you have to move fast. Plus getting Selador is much easier in the bid specification requirements (read below). So go for ETC Selador and you'll be set (don't be surprised if the price scares the big shots away).

The key to your survival is getting to the person writing the bid specifications. To meet legal requirements with your state bid specifications must be based on physical characteristics and differences, not brand specific names. You can't say I want ETC Desire 60 fixtures. However you can say that in order to meet your needs for accurate colors in a live theater setting you will only accept LED fixtures that use SEVEN COLOR LED mixing. RGB, RGBA, or RGBAW fixtures will not meet your standards. Furthermore you need very bright fixtures. You require LED PAR style fixtures with a minimum of 60 - 2.5 watt LED's per fixture. Congratulations there's only one fixture out there that uses 7 color mixing, in a PAR shape, with 60-2.5 watt LED's. You just got yourself some ETC Desires by selecting physical characteristics of them that no other product meets. Spend some time on the ETC site going through the Selador line. Go to the download page for each product and find the Product Spec pdf file. This is the information your purchasing person needs to get you the product you want. I would tend to go with ETC Lutr's for front light, ETC Desires for light overhead, and ETC Vivid's for cyc lights. It's probably going to be way to expensive and the administration will either back off or tell you tough luck they found some cheap stuff on E-bay. But if you do get them, they will be nice. Also remember you will probably need a new console to control them and a lot of cable and massive changes to your power setup.

 

[mozsey]

I work in a space that's half conventional half LED. Luckily, we have good LED pars.

That being said, you need to be able to spend money. Of course you could get the LED S4, they're out now of course. but they are expensive as all hell. If you can get the money, LED can be beneficial. But you also have to account for throw distance in getting your instruments. You can see great reviews for different instruments, but who's to say that the throw is the same in your theatre.

I agree with everything gafftaper says, and am glad he's in on this thread.

 

[JDurnford2011]

I work in a space that's half conventional half LED. Luckily, we have good LED pars.

That being said, you need to be able to spend money. Of course you could get the LED S4, they're out now of course. but they are expensive as all hell. If you can get the money, LED can be beneficial. But you also have to account for throw distance in getting your instruments. You can see great reviews for different instruments, but who's to say that the throw is the same in your theatre.

Mozsey is right on the price as it would be very expensive and not guaranteed to even look the way you have in your mind. It is good to always have a fair amount of conventionals available in case your LEDs decide to go out or you have a problem with your dmx. Plus nothing beats an original S4 Leko because these fixtures have amazing throw distances and thats why its a standard in most professional aplications.

LEDs are the icing on the cake so to speak and not good for all operations such as work light for example.

Justin Durnford
Lighting Specialist

 

[bishopthomas]

Hey, Jon. If you don't already have someone you're working with for this please give me a call. I'd be glad to come look at your space and give you my opinion on whether it's worth it to go LED, stick to conventional, or a combination of both. I can bring some of each for a demo as well.

Thomas
609.902.6277

 

[FatherMurphy]

Strand's new PL line of LED fixtures are worth looking at. I haven't seen the profile in a side-by-side shootout yet, so I don't know if I'd want to rely on them as front light in all applications (instead of incandescent), but the rest of the line is to the point of being appropriate for most school-sized stages. Cost is getting close to the cross point of replacing three-color incandescent washes with dimmers (new costs), so it's not as far out of line financially as it was.

A couple years ago, a small school asked me to price out two full-stage runs of LED strips, bright as possible, to replace some old incandescent strips the maintenance guys had taken down and thrown out during remodeling. Cost ended up being something like $50K.... I told them I could give them a regular theater system for that. Two-three years later, they're still doing shows under white florescent work lights....

 

[kpnac]

I would agree with Derek and Gaff...We did a total renovation...the decisions were made three years before the construction started. Even though (I am the Theater advisor and "AV" guy in the school) I was in on the planning, some of the recommendations and demands that were made and agreed on, were thrown out and disregarded to keep within budget. These decisions were all made by administrators with no idea of the consequences. With that said, we did get a half and half system. Working very well at this point. Good luck!

 

[BillConnerFASTC]

In new construction we are finding the cost of conventional - central dimmers and quartz - competitive with LED with distributed power and data. We are keeping some quartz with a local dimmer - like the S4 or BakPak dimmer - for foh. You have to be able to realize savings from pipe and wire, feeders, cooling load, dimmer room, etc.

So if it takes 15 S4PARS for a wash and 24 Desires - are the 24 Desires functionally equivalent to 30 of the pars because of multiple colors? 45?