Conventional Fixtures LEDs for the theatre
- Thread starterKelite
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Existing buildings are another story, but for any new facilities if/when we reach the point of LED as the standard, even if the technology isn't as cheap as incandescents, many places could save a lot of money not having to purchase and wire up dimmer systems, pay for lamps, gels, massive amounts of energy, etc. I don't know if/when that will be, but there certainly is prospect for cheaper facility operations in the long-term.
The reason I leave some uncertainty in what I say, is because it will at least be 3-5 years before LED's advance that far, and who knows where that technology will go, or what other technologies may arise in that time frame.
The reason I leave some uncertainty in what I say, is because it will at least be 3-5 years before LED's advance that far, and who knows where that technology will go, or what other technologies may arise in that time frame.
There is one issue with that MNicolai. Unless the space is playing on keeping everything self contanded, until conventionals are gone by the waste side, no one would want to be in a space like that.
The issue is touring shows now travel, expecting things like dimmers and conventional lighting. Having to re-program an entire show for a couple of spaces because they have nothing but LEDs would be a waste. Dimmers won't go away until the industry as a whole excepts all LEDs.
If someone were to go all LED and no dimmers, that would mean they have something that no one else uses. All LED houses also won't be excepted until most or all of the venues are that way. To do that would take an astronomical amount of money, that just about no space has, even high dollar ones.
Another big issue is rental houses. If you are an all LED house, and you call a rental house, what happens when they don't have the types of LEDs you are looking for? There are some many versions, each with their own little quirks, issues, and differences in beam size, power, amount of LEDs, color of LEDs, etc etc. When someone calls a rental house asking for conventionals, they are, for the most part, all the same. A Source Four is a Source Four. All tungsten lamps have a color temperature around 3000k, gel from one light will work in another, same with gobos, for the most part. I can easily gel a bunch of Source Four and 360Q lekos with R60 and have them all look like R60. LEDs however color mix slightly different from fixture to fixture, even within the same company.
All LED houses, despite the savings in power, gel, and replacement lamps, might in the long run end up costing you more money since no one wants to tour through there. Being different and trying to be efficient isn't always smart.
The issue is touring shows now travel, expecting things like dimmers and conventional lighting. Having to re-program an entire show for a couple of spaces because they have nothing but LEDs would be a waste. Dimmers won't go away until the industry as a whole excepts all LEDs.
If someone were to go all LED and no dimmers, that would mean they have something that no one else uses. All LED houses also won't be excepted until most or all of the venues are that way. To do that would take an astronomical amount of money, that just about no space has, even high dollar ones.
Another big issue is rental houses. If you are an all LED house, and you call a rental house, what happens when they don't have the types of LEDs you are looking for? There are some many versions, each with their own little quirks, issues, and differences in beam size, power, amount of LEDs, color of LEDs, etc etc. When someone calls a rental house asking for conventionals, they are, for the most part, all the same. A Source Four is a Source Four. All tungsten lamps have a color temperature around 3000k, gel from one light will work in another, same with gobos, for the most part. I can easily gel a bunch of Source Four and 360Q lekos with R60 and have them all look like R60. LEDs however color mix slightly different from fixture to fixture, even within the same company.
All LED houses, despite the savings in power, gel, and replacement lamps, might in the long run end up costing you more money since no one wants to tour through there. Being different and trying to be efficient isn't always smart.
Valid, "backwards compatibility" will be a necessity for years to come.
A truly double-edged sword: how to be on the bleeding edge of technology and still remain backward compatible. What's happening today is not all that different from the 1970s when the stage lighting industry advanced from incandescent to T/H lamps. Gelatine and non-ploycarbonate/polyester color media became obsolete (although a Google search shows Roscolene as still available from many sources!?). Subtractive color filters are wasteful. We must find new methods and light sources with higher efficacy/lumens per watt.
I love the idea of a SourceFour lamp cap retrofit, and there's no good reason a "lamp" couldn't be developed with four LEDs (RGBA) instead of four filament segments. Yes, it would need DMX or ACN, but would only draw 0.3A of constant power instead of 6.5A of dimmed power. Clever inventors would design it such that it can also be powered by a dimmer to control intensity, or if using constant power, a virtual intensity channel on the control console.
Only problem is two million SourceFour units is not a large enough market to solely support the R&D costs, so, as always, the theatre will have to piggyback on the innovations of other industries.
Kelite, Ame, and others, please don't think I'm a "gel-hater" because I'm not. I just feel new technology is just around the corner.
I love the idea of a SourceFour lamp cap retrofit, and there's no good reason a "lamp" couldn't be developed with four LEDs (RGBA) instead of four filament segments. Yes, it would need DMX or ACN, but would only draw 0.3A of constant power instead of 6.5A of dimmed power. Clever inventors would design it such that it can also be powered by a dimmer to control intensity, or if using constant power, a virtual intensity channel on the control console.
Only problem is two million SourceFour units is not a large enough market to solely support the R&D costs, so, as always, the theatre will have to piggyback on the innovations of other industries.
Kelite, Ame, and others, please don't think I'm a "gel-hater" because I'm not. I just feel new technology is just around the corner.
I partially disagree with not the idea of a S4 retrofit cap, but more the implementation of it. Before that happens, LED's need to become much brighter, and a far more consistant "white" needs to be established. Actually, all colors need to be more consistant if color mixing is to be included. Additionally, I believe it would be difficult to retrofit LED's into the S4 reflector in a manner they will allow for any sort of even relative flat-field focus. If anything, I would expect the entire reflector/lamp base assembly would have to be replaced. This is made extremely difficult with the consideration you need three sets of LED's for color-mixing, and a way to make them all fit in the same place, within the reflector in a manner they produce a flat field. I don't see this as any easy fix. I don't think there will be any easy fix to update a S4 to LED technology -- at least not with the LED's acting as the color-mixing technology involved.
With that said, I see no reason why ETC couldn't release a line of LED PAR's, PARnels(?), and ellipsoidals, with knobs and whistles relative to the S4 H/T line, but if the bodies can be the same, and lamp assemblies the only difference between them, I would doubt that. That's more difficult if color-mixing is desired than if not. Consider the difference between throwing just white LED's in, as opposed to having to have to fit three times as many in. That said, the most I would expect, is at most, S4 retrofits featuring white LED's, and for color-mixing, a new line of instruments. That's a whole heck of a lot of shaky speculating though, take my words with little weight, understanding I don't work for ETC, only use their equipment.
With that said, I see no reason why ETC couldn't release a line of LED PAR's, PARnels(?), and ellipsoidals, with knobs and whistles relative to the S4 H/T line, but if the bodies can be the same, and lamp assemblies the only difference between them, I would doubt that. That's more difficult if color-mixing is desired than if not. Consider the difference between throwing just white LED's in, as opposed to having to have to fit three times as many in. That said, the most I would expect, is at most, S4 retrofits featuring white LED's, and for color-mixing, a new line of instruments. That's a whole heck of a lot of shaky speculating though, take my words with little weight, understanding I don't work for ETC, only use their equipment.
Just want to clarify my idea as I don't think you are all quite getting it...
The point is to have a cheap LED upgrade that allows you to simply pull the old cap, plug in the new one and run it exactly the same way you always have... but at 1/10 the power. The LED upgrade cap would be White LED only. It wouldn't have DMX/ACN control, just a simple transformer on the back so it can be run from the same old dimmer system. Just 3 or 4 LED's that combine to create an exact HPL replica in terms of color temp and intensity. This means you can upgrade to an LED source and burn a fraction of the electricity with no other change to your system. Keep using your dimmers and console, keep using your gel and gobos. Instead of a $20 lamp you buy the $100 LED kit and you will never need to buy a lamp again. Since it's an exact replica of an HPL poor venues can upgrade their system one instrument at a time as their lamps blow and they will all match. Since it's just a white LED without the color mixing control it can be cheap. This idea is technologically very close to being possible today. Just need some monster 20+watt LED's that we can tweak the color temp on and we are good to go. The rest is already doable right now. It seems to me by using the current reflector it actually makes it easier to position LED's in a way that create a nice even wash.
Product #2 I would like is the LED color mixing S4 burner upgrade unit. Pop your S4 in half at the gate, and throw on the new LED burner and use your old lens train and accessories. You won't need gel anymore. This of course does mean DMX/ACN control and therefore is going to cost a lot more. It also is a lot more complex in terms of matching color to the old colors you like. But with the current software concepts in Ion and Palette that shouldn't be a problem as your console already "knows" what to mix in order to match the gel color.
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The point is to have a cheap LED upgrade that allows you to simply pull the old cap, plug in the new one and run it exactly the same way you always have... but at 1/10 the power. The LED upgrade cap would be White LED only. It wouldn't have DMX/ACN control, just a simple transformer on the back so it can be run from the same old dimmer system. Just 3 or 4 LED's that combine to create an exact HPL replica in terms of color temp and intensity. This means you can upgrade to an LED source and burn a fraction of the electricity with no other change to your system. Keep using your dimmers and console, keep using your gel and gobos. Instead of a $20 lamp you buy the $100 LED kit and you will never need to buy a lamp again. Since it's an exact replica of an HPL poor venues can upgrade their system one instrument at a time as their lamps blow and they will all match. Since it's just a white LED without the color mixing control it can be cheap. This idea is technologically very close to being possible today. Just need some monster 20+watt LED's that we can tweak the color temp on and we are good to go. The rest is already doable right now. It seems to me by using the current reflector it actually makes it easier to position LED's in a way that create a nice even wash.
Product #2 I would like is the LED color mixing S4 burner upgrade unit. Pop your S4 in half at the gate, and throw on the new LED burner and use your old lens train and accessories. You won't need gel anymore. This of course does mean DMX/ACN control and therefore is going to cost a lot more. It also is a lot more complex in terms of matching color to the old colors you like. But with the current software concepts in Ion and Palette that shouldn't be a problem as your console already "knows" what to mix in order to match the gel color.
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David Ashton
Well-Known Member
Would you care to substantiate that statement with some references we can all share?
Well there is that company out there with the 100Watt single LED moving head.
I think a big trick with the whole led upgrade kit you guys are championing is making it work with current reflectors.... Having replaced some reflectors I know this is not a task just anyone can do. (You need a pop riveter)
Les
Well-Known Member
What reflectors need a pop riveter? I can think of maybe some older lights, but 360Q's use 3 hex screws, SL's slide out the top of the instrument after removing one screw in the bottom, but I'm not sure about Source Fours. Do they need rivets?
I think what Gaff is getting at is the idea of placing 4 LED's in the same position as the 4 filaments in the HPL. Honestly I think it's brilliant, and could possibly create enough of a point source that you don't have to modify your reflector in any way. I think it's entirely possible, especially since at one time we were all arguing about the idea of using LED's on any stage; and I just saw a Switchfoot concert a few months ago lit entirely by LED's, less the followspots. Not as bright as pars or intelligents, but it was lit.
If you can get an LED cap for a Source Four, then you can get one for the 360Q and then they would run cooler and burned shutters would be a thing of the past. I really do think its doable.
The only thing that sucks is that I just got done spending several hundred dollars on standard caps for my 360Q's. Well I guess I shouldn't feel too bad, the LED Kit 575 doesn't exist yet!
I think what Gaff is getting at is the idea of placing 4 LED's in the same position as the 4 filaments in the HPL. Honestly I think it's brilliant, and could possibly create enough of a point source that you don't have to modify your reflector in any way. I think it's entirely possible, especially since at one time we were all arguing about the idea of using LED's on any stage; and I just saw a Switchfoot concert a few months ago lit entirely by LED's, less the followspots. Not as bright as pars or intelligents, but it was lit.
If you can get an LED cap for a Source Four, then you can get one for the 360Q and then they would run cooler and burned shutters would be a thing of the past. I really do think its doable.
The only thing that sucks is that I just got done spending several hundred dollars on standard caps for my 360Q's. Well I guess I shouldn't feel too bad, the LED Kit 575 doesn't exist yet!
The only future technology my idea requires is an LED/ set of LED's able to duplicate an HPL in intensity color temperature. That LED/set of LED's must fit in an S4 cap.
While all we are used to only seeing 1 and 3 Watt LED's on the market there are plenty of larger LED's out there in the R&D labs right now. As Pie said there already is a single 100 Watt LED on the market. So intensity is VERY close to not being a problem. Color temp... well that get's tricky but I've seen Seleador's mixing perfect combinations of color temperature. I think it should just be a matter of matching a couple of white and amber LED's together to get the correct spectrum mix. Maybe that's harder than it sounds, but it doesn't seem like it should be that difficult.
Other than that my idea is technology you can get at Fry's. I admit I'm not a professional electrician so I may be over simplifying things but it seems that once you have the correct LED's its something anyone with a soldering iron, transformer, and a few resistors could build themselves.
Exactly, unlike PARS and Fresnels you have a wonderful reflector and lens train to work with. Put LED's at the exact focal point that the usual filaments go. Aim them forward with the correct beam spread so they overlap when they hit the gate. Any stray light will be collected by the reflector and focused back in just like an HPL.
ST... I would tell you where to send the check for my idea but It would seem you guys already know how to find me.
gafftaper, I wouldn't start spending that ETC money just yet. Since Philips owns both Color Kinetics and Strand, it's very possible that the first usable ERS might be the SL(ED) Coolbeam Spotlight. <gasp!> But it will only work in a Vari*Lite yoke with an ET dimmer.
Wouldn't that be something, ETC copying someone else for a change?
Mr. Philips, PM me privately so I can tell you where to send the Euros.
Wouldn't that be something, ETC copying someone else for a change?
Mr. Philips, PM me privately so I can tell you where to send the Euros.
Got a PM that was still confused about what I'm saying so I'll try again...
You put the LED's at the first focal point of the ellipsoidal reflector. LED's are not a point source they are directional. So we can't just count on the reflector to gather all the light and refocus it like the standard lamp. Instead we design the LED so that it is the perfect beam angle spread to go through the gate at just the right size to clear it. Any stray light will be collected by the reflector and refocused back out through the gate as with the normal lamp. If we can redesign an LED to be a point source it's even easier... but I think that's farther down the road.
A constant problem so far with LED PARs is the uneven nature of the wash due to so many light sources. They are trying to evenly spread out a bunch of LEDs over a wide area to evenly mix. But with an ERS the closer to a point source the better... so one LED is great. IF we need a couple LEDs for intensity we still avoid the uneven problem by stacking the LEDs right next to each other and as close to the first focal point as possible. If they are all aimed perfectly at the gate then they will all overlap and enter the lens tube as one nice even mix of color to be focused by the lenses. True the multiple LED's wouldn't all hit the lens at the exact same angle but it would be REALLY close and hopefully it would still work. If not we might need to go back to the 360Q two lens design that has one lens straighten out all the light before spreading it back out again.
Is this making sense to anyone besides me?
You put the LED's at the first focal point of the ellipsoidal reflector. LED's are not a point source they are directional. So we can't just count on the reflector to gather all the light and refocus it like the standard lamp. Instead we design the LED so that it is the perfect beam angle spread to go through the gate at just the right size to clear it. Any stray light will be collected by the reflector and refocused back out through the gate as with the normal lamp. If we can redesign an LED to be a point source it's even easier... but I think that's farther down the road.
A constant problem so far with LED PARs is the uneven nature of the wash due to so many light sources. They are trying to evenly spread out a bunch of LEDs over a wide area to evenly mix. But with an ERS the closer to a point source the better... so one LED is great. IF we need a couple LEDs for intensity we still avoid the uneven problem by stacking the LEDs right next to each other and as close to the first focal point as possible. If they are all aimed perfectly at the gate then they will all overlap and enter the lens tube as one nice even mix of color to be focused by the lenses. True the multiple LED's wouldn't all hit the lens at the exact same angle but it would be REALLY close and hopefully it would still work. If not we might need to go back to the 360Q two lens design that has one lens straighten out all the light before spreading it back out again.
Is this making sense to anyone besides me?
Here's a white, 360° viewing angle, LED that might be a good candidate. How bright is "Luminous Flux of 9000 mlm"? We'd have four, so how bright is 36,000 mlms? Not crazy about the correlated color temperature of 5470K but it'll appear brighter cause it's whiter, just like the HPL.
Derek we can't do this all by ourselves. We have to leave something for ST and his R&D guys to do.
Although as you said, the evil emperor over at CK probably already has a patent for something like "Using an LED as the light source for an ERS". I hear their application to patent use of the visible light spectrum for lighting a stage may be approved.
Although as you said, the evil emperor over at CK probably already has a patent for something like "Using an LED as the light source for an ERS". I hear their application to patent use of the visible light spectrum for lighting a stage may be approved.
I think we're getting off-track focusing on color temp. If they can master the phosphors to get it down to the HPL575 or HPL750 temp, that's great, but not necessary. Otherwise, if maintaining that color temp to keep everyone on the same page for gels, then you could put a corrective filter in place to bring that temp down, or you could simply gel the color temp as is. It's a pain in the butt if you can't replace your entire rig at once, but that could be the eventual reality. You can't look to the future, when focused on the past.
The problem I foresee is getting a flat-field focus off of the non-point-source design of LED's.
Here's a question for you engineers though. Is it possible to create a point-source LED by changing the design of the LED to look like...
-----=====------
- (wire)
= (diode)
The problem I foresee is getting a flat-field focus off of the non-point-source design of LED's.
Here's a question for you engineers though. Is it possible to create a point-source LED by changing the design of the LED to look like...
-----=====------
- (wire)
= (diode)
Icewolf08 or gafftaper, have you disassembled your Chauvet MinSpots yet to see their optics? They are a single multi-color (RGB) LED with an ellipsoidal reflector, aren't they?
Hmmm... the LED upgrade kit is starting to sound more like a product for City Theatrical or Apollo... Once you have the technology down no reason you couldn't make it fit S4's, 360Q's, SL's, Pacifics, and Shakespeare's.
Haven't taken mine apart. Alex?
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David Ashton
Well-Known Member
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